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Old 03-21-2014, 12:41 PM   #16
sweatmark
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Originally Posted by cele0001 View Post
Thank you...
I believe that the bike would have long happy life. Either way it is not ready yet.
If there is enough interest I will run 10 parts. Right now I am hovering at about $100 for the kit but nothing finalized yet.
Count me in for a kit.
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:27 PM   #17
Jim Moore
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That's nice work there, neighbor! I'm very interested. Just so I'm picturing this correctly. On the curent setup there is left over spline on the clutch hub after everything is assembled. Your spacer moves the splined part of the clutch hub to the rear by 6 mm, which allows the total splined area of the hub to be engaged. We haven't actually solved the underlying problem, we've just given the splines additional meat that they have to chew through. Perhaps pushing the (inevitable?) failure so far into the mileage future that it becomes a non-issue.
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Old 03-22-2014, 04:38 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
Actually, with the bike neutral and with everything warmed up, you can hear a slight "chatter" if it's badly worn.

But it's very similier to the noise that lots of BM's make anyway. But if yours never made any noise, or you can now hear a slightly different noise, then it could be a sign.

BUT, be careful, because it's very easy to get paraniod over this type of noise, especially if you've a long trip coming up.
0H great, BANG,CLUNK,RATTLE,POP,WHINE,WHIR,TICK, and now I need to listen for splinage may not be finage.. D.
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:29 PM   #19
cele0001 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
That's nice work there, neighbor! I'm very interested. Just so I'm picturing this correctly. On the curent setup there is left over spline on the clutch hub after everything is assembled. Your spacer moves the splined part of the clutch hub to the rear by 6 mm, which allows the total splined area of the hub to be engaged. We haven't actually solved the underlying problem, we've just given the splines additional meat that they have to chew through. Perhaps pushing the (inevitable?) failure so far into the mileage future that it becomes a non-issue.
I would say that you are correct, except for the statement that "we haven't solved the underlying problem". I would go with maybe on that one (just to be conservative). Everything else is correct. I would say the last sentence reflects my exact feelings on this subject.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:57 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by cele0001 View Post
I would say that you are correct, except for the statement that "we haven't solved the underlying problem". I would go with maybe on that one (just to be conservative). Everything else is correct. I would say the last sentence reflects my exact feelings on this subject.
I would hazard that amount of spline engagement is secondary because some of them fail at low mileage. I think my friend's 2004 has let go at about 30k.
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Old 03-23-2014, 11:03 AM   #21
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If anybody has an example of a hub where the splines do not engage fully other than bmw 6 speed transmission I would like to see it. As far as the misalignment theory I would like to say that perfect alignment does not exist. There is no 0.00000000000 match anywhere in the machine world. So, would it be possible to assume that tolerances for alignment were assumed for full spline engagement and due to lack of that engagement what should be " normal" misalignment becomes beginning of spline wear which is then positive feedback loop into destruction.
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Old 03-24-2014, 10:23 AM   #22
sweatmark
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Originally Posted by cele0001 View Post
If anybody has an example of a hub where the splines do not engage fully other than bmw 6 speed transmission I would like to see it. As far as the misalignment theory I would like to say that perfect alignment does not exist. There is no 0.00000000000 match anywhere in the machine world. So, would it be possible to assume that tolerances for alignment were assumed for full spline engagement and due to lack of that engagement what should be " normal" misalignment becomes beginning of spline wear which is then positive feedback loop into destruction.
Agreed. My father-in-law worked 35 years as truck fleet mechanic, and saw a lot of clutch splines. When I described the R1150** clutch hub overhang to him and shared pics of various shredded transmission input shafts, he nodded grimly and confirmed that he'd never before seen splined mating clutch parts with such a flawed [my word] design.

The OE parts have/had some slop as new parts, according to local dealer service guys. Take that slop, multiply it by the hub overhang, apply whatever dynamic imbalance or parts misalignment might be present, and you get progressive pitting or spalling in the load zone defined by the wacky splined interface geometry. That's my theory.

So, tweaking the R1150 hub position to avoid most or all of the spline overhang seems like the smart move... Next winter I will do a spline inspection and install the tweaked clutch hub kit.

Btw, the old mechanic called BS on anything to do with spline lubrication, since many serviceable truck clutch hubs he worked on had little or no residual grease evident after long service periods.
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Old 03-24-2014, 11:27 AM   #23
roger 04 rt
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Even with the extended hub, the input splines are still 4-6 mm short of passing through the clutch-web plane (holds the hub to the disc). Even with full engagement, there will still be an angular force on the hub if the crankshaft and input shaft are offset from one another.

I don't know if this is or isn't an issue but it seems worth discussion.
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Old 03-24-2014, 12:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Even with the extended hub, the input splines are still 4-6 mm short of passing through the clutch-web plane (holds the hub to the disc). Even with full engagement, there will still be an angular force on the hub if the crankshaft and input shaft are offset from one another.

I don't know if this is or isn't an issue but it seems worth discussion.
That has been discussed before and it was a real concern to some.
I don't have the thread handy, sorry.
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Old 03-24-2014, 12:07 PM   #25
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Quick update

Due to the greater positive response than originally anticipated I went ahead and placed and order for 10 hubs. There will be no prepayment. I am still working on the rivet solution. My original "proof of concept" was just 5mm thick spacer that I bolted in with M5 bolts with red locktite. I pulled it out after 500 miles and there was nothing to report. I have since removed the bolts and installed rivets using hammer and punch. I don't like the possibility of lose parts in the transmission housing.This is the part of the process that I want to get "normalized" to make sure it is repeatable. Those that expressed interest (or even those who could care less) and have scrap clutch plate to play with please send me a PM.
This is what is spinning inside my bike as we speak. I put about 300 miles and removed it and re-installed it over the weekend to check. Nothing to report.

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Old 03-24-2014, 12:46 PM   #26
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That has been discussed before and it was a real concern to some.
I don't have the thread handy, sorry.
I'll look for it. I'm interested in this point. Of course there isn't an option for a longer shaft
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Old 03-24-2014, 12:52 PM   #27
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I'll look for it. I'm interested in this point. Of course there isn't an option for a longer shaft
Someone had a longer shaft produced at one point. But it was upwards of a grand if I remember right.

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Old 03-24-2014, 01:04 PM   #28
roger 04 rt
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Someone had a longer shaft produced at one point. But it was upwards of a grand if I remember right.

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Yes, it was GSAddict!
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Old 03-24-2014, 01:06 PM   #29
Terry
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Yes, it was GSAddict!
Ah yes. I only had to go back a couple of pages in this thread to be reminded of that!

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Old 03-24-2014, 02:05 PM   #30
JimVonBaden
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Even with the extended hub, the input splines are still 4-6 mm short of passing through the clutch-web plane (holds the hub to the disc). Even with full engagement, there will still be an angular force on the hub if the crankshaft and input shaft are offset from one another.

I don't know if this is or isn't an issue but it seems worth discussion.
That is the thing. Even if the shaft went all the way into a bushing on the crank it wouldn't solve this issue. It isn't like the shaft is flexing.
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