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Old 05-07-2014, 04:15 PM   #31
ttpete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joexr View Post
I believe the KaTooMs STILL use linkless rear shocks.
Lots of today's bikes do. Not uncommon at all. Kawasaki Versys, ER-6, and Ninja 650R have them.

Vincent motorcycles patented and used the single shock design beginning in 1928.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joexr View Post
I believe the KaTooMs STILL use linkless rear shocks.

While still true, not all KTM's are linkless anymore. Their 350's and 450's are sporting linked rear suspension these days. I think they must have detected a need for change since most everyone else in MX land is using linked rising rate rear suspensions. It makes sense since a fork is usually a progressive suspension because of the trapped air volume.

Apparently, there are pros and cons to each setup from what I have read.

No one has mentioned Ducati here to my knowledge, so I will. They have gone to linkless (cantilever) shocks in their Monster series. They do use progressive springs, though. I think they did that to save money and weight while mimicking linked suspension the best way they can . What do you all think?

BTW, welcome back from Banned Camp, Joe.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:19 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by erkmania View Post
While still true, not all KTM's are linkless anymore. Their 350's and 450's are sporting linked rear suspension these days. I think they must have detected a need for change since most everyone else in MX land is using linked rising rate rear suspensions. It makes sense since a fork is usually a progressive suspension because of the trapped air volume.

Apparently, there are pros and cons to each setup from what I have read.

No one has mentioned Ducati here to my knowledge, so I will. They have gone to linkless (cantilever) shocks in their Monster series. They do use progressive springs, though. I think they did that to save money and weight while mimicking linked suspension the best way they can . What do you all think?

BTW, welcome back from Banned Camp, Joe.
I also think that it's done for cost reasons. There are variations in the linked suspension, mostly done on the racebikes, that make them non-rising rate.

If you get a chance, have a look at the setup on the 1199 Panigale. It's unique due to the fact there's no actual frame.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania View Post
While still true, not all KTM's are linkless anymore. Their 350's and 450's are sporting linked rear suspension these days. I think they must have detected a need for change since most everyone else in MX land is using linked rising rate rear suspensions. It makes sense since a fork is usually a progressive suspension because of the trapped air volume.

Apparently, there are pros and cons to each setup from what I have read.

No one has mentioned Ducati here to my knowledge, so I will. They have gone to linkless (cantilever) shocks in their Monster series. They do use progressive springs, though. I think they did that to save money and weight while mimicking linked suspension the best way they can . What do you all think?

BTW, welcome back from Banned Camp, Joe.
Depending on the cantilever geometry , it could be rising or falling rate and not necessarily from the factory , but easily varied.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:35 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
I also think that it's done for cost reasons. There are variations in the linked suspension, mostly done on the racebikes, that make them non-rising rate.

If you get a chance, have a look at the setup on the 1199 Panigale. It's unique due to the fact there's no actual frame.
I looked at the Panigale. It appears to have a link despite it's...um... 'frameless-ness'. Do you see it?

OK, now how do I shrink the image I linked? Sorry for it being over-sized.



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Old 05-07-2014, 05:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Depending on the cantilever geometry , it could be rising or falling rate and not necessarily from the factory , but easily varied.
Too true. I don't really remember a digressive cantilever being used, though. Most are progressive. My ATK is a good example. I think both you and I know that progressive linkages are nothing more than stacked cantilever designs.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:49 PM   #37
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Question

It's kind of hard to see with the downward angle of the pic what the change in geometry does by relocating that center pivot point on the cantilever.
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
Dirt bikes or street bikes?
Its hard to get 12 inches of travel out of the dual shock setup.
On the street, twin shocks make it easy to adjust for added load, and the shocks keep bags out of the rear wheel, otherwise the single shock setup likely has some performance advantages but uses up space.
I have a 1984 Husqvarna 500xc that uses two shocks in the rear. The bike is stock and has 13.8 inches of rear wheel travel.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:34 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by portalespeanut View Post
Interesting question...there's a world of difference between the either system depending if you're considering 'highway' or 'offroad'. I would like to speak to the offroad side of this discussion - First, many of the developments in suspension have been born out of the dirtbike world with single shock rising rate suspensions finally taking over from the twin shock world...for many reasons. While rising rate single shock suspensions are the norm for offroad, I will say that some of the last long travel twin shock setups on some dirtbikes of the '80's (yes, I'm old), were incredible.

Case in point, I have a '80's model Husky with the twin shock configuration...it has the Olins remote res. style shocks with about 13 inches of travel that have been tuned by Scotts Suspensions. The quality and quantity of the suspension travel is incredible...and surprisingly good, even today. It was superior to the single shock rising rate CR500 which replaced it in my barn at that time. Recently, I took the old Husky off-roading with some friends, and one of my buddies wanted to swap bikes for a bit so he could sample a 'vintage bike'. He was shocked (no pun intended) at the suspension, remarking, "This thing is awesome across the desert...it eats everything in sight!...but where's the brakes!!!" The old Husky has a surprisingly competent suspension, even by today's standards...as long as one's not comparing it to the latest in pro level competition machinery.

A good, well tuned twin shock setup is an excellent suspension...my Husky can still cross brutally rough terrain at speed with great control...it's only shortcoming is that it's slightly more 'harsh' due to the fact that it's not a rising rate suspension. While not super plush, it is competent and confidence inspiring, always working with you, and never surprising you. Single shock suspensions rule now, and are tuneable, versatile, and reliable...they rule for good reason, but they are NOT the only way to suspend a rear end of a bike...just my .02 cents...
Like I said, the main con is the shock is exposed to be bent, that's about it. They can work incredibly well.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:35 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
Lots of today's bikes do. Not uncommon at all. Kawasaki Versys, ER-6, and Ninja 650R have them.

Vincent motorcycles patented and used the single shock design beginning in 1928.
I don't know about the single shock, all the big twins from the forties and fifties had TWO shocks in there. Fact is every one I've seen with original frames had the triangular swingarm with twin shocks.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:39 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
I don't know about the single shock, all the big twins from the forties and fifties had TWO shocks in there. Fact is every one I've seen with original frames had the triangular swingarm with twin shocks.
There were two shocks in there side by side, but being so close together, effectively they were the same as one heavier one. Phil Vincent built HRDs with that setup and bought in Rudge Python and JAP 500 cc single engines from 1928-1934.
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:58 PM   #42
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Why does a single shock cost twice as much,as a pair of shocks?
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Old 05-08-2014, 02:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by doxiedog View Post
Why does a single shock cost twice as much,as a pair of shocks?
You might compare equal quality shocks. Look at the price of an Ohlins monoshock compared to a pair of Ohlins twin shocks.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:22 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
There were two shocks in there side by side, but being so close together, effectively they were the same as one heavier one. Phil Vincent built HRDs with that setup and bought in Rudge Python and JAP 500 cc single engines from 1928-1934.

Yes, but they weren't a single shock. If there was actually any kind of patent that would be a difference. Same as having one shock in standard positioning versus having two. If memory serves me right Honda's Gold Wing had a single shock on a twin side swingarm, with the shock mounted on one side. But I could be wrong and will quickly know so if I am
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:51 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Yes, but they weren't a single shock. If there was actually any kind of patent that would be a difference. Same as having one shock in standard positioning versus having two. If memory serves me right Honda's Gold Wing had a single shock on a twin side swingarm, with the shock mounted on one side. But I could be wrong and will quickly know so if I am
Depends on what Goldwing. I'm not sure what the 1800 is like but all the older models were twin shocks. The 1500 did have kind of an odd setup where one side was an adjustable air shock and the other was a standard-type shock.
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