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Old 06-27-2014, 06:35 PM   #811
JettPilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reenmachine View Post
I have a death wish then.

Silence doesn't necessarily mean secrecy and suppression of information. Sometimes silence happens because there isn't actually anything to say!
If you look at any industry in history, there have always been cover ups, and attempts to silence anyone that would expose a problem. To just say " BMW would not try to cover up a problem " is just dumb. But hey, industries love people like you :) Next you will be saying how honest all the cigarette companies were in the 1950's, and that smoking is harmless ....

I would not say you have a death wish, I would just say that you could be a little smarter... Personally, if someone gave me a BMW, I would probably ride it. But I most definitely be checking that fork attachment for cracks under magnification on a regular basis...

If I were buying a bike of that class, there would be no choice, the Yamaha Super Ténéré

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Old 06-27-2014, 08:56 PM   #812
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Originally Posted by JettPilot View Post
The ignition switch is a non issue, only a total dumbass would crash their car because the engine quit. I have zero sympathy for those people.

Having your front wheel fall off your forks is something that will likely kill you, and no amount of skill in the world will save you if this happens.

Mike
And yet... the lawyer are going to _easily_ win against GM.

All the more reason this should be a slam dunk.
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Old 06-28-2014, 06:20 AM   #813
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All the yapping in this thread.....

The ignition switches have nothing in common with this defect, other than the fact that they are both defects. The issue with the ignition switch was that the defect was conciously designed in. The failure mode was repeatable and the switches alwaays failed in the same way.

We do not have that here. If the fork failures all showed the same metallurgy, this would have been resolved a while ago. They don't, therefore it is very very challenging to say who is fault., or even if true fault exists.
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Old 06-28-2014, 09:17 AM   #814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JettPilot View Post
The ignition switch is a non issue, only a total dumbass would crash their car because the engine quit. I have zero sympathy for those people.

Having your front wheel fall off your forks is something that will likely kill you, and no amount of skill in the world will save you if this happens.

Mike
I agree. C&D did an analysis of the dead ones. Something like 70% of those who died when their ignition switch cut off were drunk or drugged or both.
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Old 06-28-2014, 01:26 PM   #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JettPilot View Post
The ignition switch is a non issue, only a total dumbass would crash their car because the engine quit. I have zero sympathy for those people.
Many drivers do not realize that they must muscle the steering when the power steering stops, and that they may need to put two feet on the brake pedal when the power brakes quit. They weren't taught this, but they should be. They aren't a dumbass, they're untrained. And, the air bags don't deploy when the car crashes after the ignition switches itself off.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:02 AM   #816
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Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
All the yapping in this thread.....

We do not have that here. If the fork failures all showed the same metallurgy, this would have been resolved a while ago. They don't, therefore it is very very challenging to say who is fault., or even if true fault exists.
So is there some link where one could view the results of the failure analysis you refer to? There are many other models of motorcycle with similarly designed lower fork legs that don't seem to be failing. When have you heard of a fork failure on the lowly KLR for example?

Regards....just jeff
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:10 AM   #817
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Seriously guys, this is pointless. The only information that has ever been found is in this thread and there's no benefit in continuing to beat a dead horse and hurl insults.

The thread should be locked.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:37 AM   #818
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Install the X-Country's forks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by just jeff View Post
So is there some link where one could view the results of the failure analysis you refer to? There are many other models of motorcycle with similarly designed lower fork legs that don't seem to be failing. When have you heard of a fork failure on the lowly KLR for example?

Regards....just jeff
I'm in the same camp as you. I've never heard of any other model having experienced this type of failure, including the KLR. I've even considered buying the G650 and installing KLR forks as they do have better bracing down around the axle boss. The part that grinds me even more is that for what BMW is asking for this model you'd expect to get better suspension components (i.e. USD forks).
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:44 AM   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antiquewidow View Post









ok, First of all - let me clarify myself.. I had armor clothing on except for jeans which is why my left knee has a larger area of road rash.

Nose bleed mild one - but I am a bleeder so this doesnt surprise me.

I am aware of the earlier issues with the F650 etc with the fork failures by searching online but saw nothing on my bike model, so I started this thread to see if there were any other bmw owners with a similar occurence etc.

My front fork shows no sign of impact. I do know how to emer stop with my bike using both brakes as I learned in my Basic safety rider course. My bike is equipped with ABS brakes and if they work like a car ABS I didnt feel any pulsating or any sign of them being used etc.
Yes this was a very low speed dump - but I still feel & look like I got run over by a mac truck.....
I bought this bike due to the fact it is a off on road and can handle the country roads. I am just totally amazed at how such a low speed incident can cause a fork to snap in half. I would be totally petrified to be dirt bike riding on the jumps and landing if something like this happens on a straight away.
soooo .. what was the final solution?
sorry have not read this massive thread ..
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Old 06-30-2014, 12:40 AM   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
All the yapping in this thread.....

The ignition switches have nothing in common with this defect, other than the fact that they are both defects. The issue with the ignition switch was that the defect was conciously designed in. The failure mode was repeatable and the switches alwaays failed in the same way.

We do not have that here. If the fork failures all showed the same metallurgy, this would have been resolved a while ago. They don't, therefore it is very very challenging to say who is fault., or even if true fault exists.

Its not really about fact that there was a defect. Its how the company reacted to the defect. Here, they have apparently silently settled with all owners that sued them, requiring non-disclosures, not issuing a recall, not issuing a service bulletin, silently changing the construction of the defective part without even changing the part number.

GM did all of those same things.... and now they have multiple class action lawsuits, and massive recall, and are setting up a multi-billion dollar payout fund. To try to save face, they are now firing all of the engineers / lawyers and VPs that were involved in the switch coverup.

Some lawyer needs to file the proper type of lawsuit against BMW to compel them to release their internal info - you know darn well they have all of the evidence necessary. They didn't redesign the forks because they felt like it.


And to be honest who really cares about the metallurgy? If they can't control their supply chain well enough to make the metallurgy meet the specs, then maybe they should over-design the part like every other manufacturer in the world... you know, the ones where the front wheels don't fall off the bike.

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Old 06-30-2014, 07:37 AM   #821
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I guess it only makes sense to those of us who have participated in OE/Tier transportation recalls in administrative and technical roles. I have yet to do one from the regulatory side.

The GM case is open and shut for NHTSA - and notice that NHTSA has not actually required GM to recall the switches. Why? Because they perform as designed, and to the current safety standard. GM is recalling them because there are so damn many of them and they are cheap to R&R. Additionally, the "defect" is possible to design out with simple engineering, and NHTSA can quickly confirm that the fix will work as designed without impacting other systems.

A defect that can't be quantified, qualified, or otherwise measured is almost impossible to design around. BMW has beefed up the axle buss twice, and there are still occasional fractures. Believe it or not, NHTSA has some engineers on staff, and I am quite sure that they have consulted to BMW to try to fix the problem. When BMW and NHTSA can figure out what the root cause of the fractures is and provide a certifiable means to eliminate them, then and only then can NHTSA force a recall. Prior to that, if the failure rate does not exceed the federal guidelines, meh. Also, up until a recall is ordered, people CAN sue BMW. Once the recall is issued, it's not so easy.

Like I said, I guess the whole recall process only makes sense to those of us who have to operate the process.

Perhaps you guys should put some of the effort into reforming NHTSA. It would be much more effective than screaming on the internet about BMW.

Besides, I can see exactly what the outcome of a recall would be already. Every bike would be hauled into the dealership and the fork ends would be treated with Magnaflux dye. No cracks after some predetermined number of miles that BMW and NHTSA agree is realistic? Good to go. And then if it broke after the mileage number was exceeded, well, tough shit. Those whose cracks were caught early enough would get to wait for new fork sliders, likely with the bike in impound at the dealership. Those who didn't would be SOL. Because that is how the law works.

Go to Grainger and buy your own dye and keep and eye on things. When you find a crack, post up and ask how to best approach BMW.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:35 PM   #822
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As far as the GM issue, a local report to the DFW area, Ed Wallace, took the time to go over all of the GM ignition lock cases, and found that in all of the cases the car hit a curb or some other object, generally at an elevated speed before the ignition turned off.

In general his opinion seems to be, a defective ignition switch can not cause the vehicle to exceed the speed limit while driving down the wrong side of the rode. As mentioned above, the majority of the ignition switch "victims" where also well above the BAC limit.

As far as the Toyota case, even though Toyota got the opportunity to help solve the US federal deficit to the tune of a billion or 2 dollars, in every single case peddle mismanagement was to blame. IOW, the driver was not actually pressing the brake pedal. And despite all those wantabe racers driving Camry's trying to impress the girls, the brakes are more than capable of over powering the engine and stopping and vehicle if the accelerator is fully depressed.

And of course finally, Ford did screw up and recommended 24 PSI for the Firestone tires to improve the shoddy ride of the explorers. Firestone of course provided a cheap ass tire that was rates for 80-90 mph at 30 PSI, and the asshats in the Federal government raised the speed limits from 55 to 70+ mph. Add in that people don't tend to check their tire pressure that often, let alone check for cracks in the side walls. And that is why Explorers flipped and blew up, okay I added that last part.

In all cases of modern automobile mass death and destruction, the owners of the vehicles where likely primarily responsible for their accidents. Seriously, who here does not eye the tires of their vehicles on a regular basis??

In the case of BMW, meh, so the front tire fell off, could happen to anyone right, well, not, just BMW owners. and of course, all the motorcycle manufactures have rear rim separate from the hub, no, sorry, just BMW, and of course, all the shaft drive motorcycles designed have significant failure rates, again, sorry, that is just BMW, and the list goes on.
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:03 AM   #823
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Looking at the above two pictures I still think the left fork leg blocked for some reason where the right one didn't. So only the right leg compresses, stressing the axle to the point where it bent, and broke lug on the right leg.

The end of the axle is pointing down, this can only happen if the front wheel is twisted sideways in the forks. 12 o'clock to the left, 6 o'clock to the right. Maybe some monday morning hangover dude severely overfilled the left fork leg on assembly?
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:49 PM   #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxLoneRider View Post

And despite all those wantabe racers driving Camry's trying to impress the girls, the brakes are more than capable of over powering the engine and stopping and vehicle if the accelerator is fully depressed.
Actually, the floormat part of that was quite real, and resulted in killing a few folks, including one that was driven by a CA state trooper (and his entire family) if I recall.

And yes, while, a properly thinking driver can overpower the engine with a single hard press of the brake pedal - panicked drivers don't do that.

They hit the brakes once, half way.... use up a bunch of their available boost, and heat the brakes up. Then they let go. They speed up again. They hit the brakes again. Use up more boost. Heat the brakes more. Let go.

At the same time, the engine is full throttle - so it is hardly creating any vacuum to replenish the brake boost.

Repeat 3 or 4 times, and you now have complete brake failure. You either don't have enough boost left to overcome the engine, or you have cooked the brakes, and you have no chance of stopping.

Oh, and as usual, the govt also botched the investigation into the computer software that Toyota was using. Kinda like how they botched this BMW investigation.

In 2013, they lost a court case because a proper review if their software and firmware proves that unintended acceleration is possible due to their horrible software implementation, which violates nearly all industry standards for mission critical things.

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive...s-consequences

They aren't going to court anymore now... now they are settling.... and re engineering their firmware...
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:47 AM   #825
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Originally Posted by _vortex_ View Post
And yes, while, a properly thinking driver can overpower the engine with a single hard press of the brake pedal - panicked drivers don't do that.

They hit the brakes once, half way.... use up a bunch of their available boost, and heat the brakes up. Then they let go. They speed up again. They hit the brakes again. Use up more boost. Heat the brakes more. Let go.

At the same time, the engine is full throttle - so it is hardly creating any vacuum to replenish the brake boost.

Repeat 3 or 4 times, and you now have complete brake failure. You either don't have enough boost left to overcome the engine, or you have cooked the brakes, and you have no chance of stopping.
I´m not saying this is the way technology should work, of course not.

But if your engine were out of control, and using brake doesn´t solve the situation, won´t turning off the ignition switch do this – it still won´t turn off or what?

It sounds like something from a Hollywood-movie to me. Trucks roaming around without a driver.
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