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Old 07-17-2014, 06:00 AM   #16
rms56
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Eek Some lessons ...

carry a higher price tag than others ... you did dodge a bullet but have the awareness to "GET" it ... a lot don't and thats just not riders. Live and learn ... and live!
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Old 07-17-2014, 06:22 AM   #17
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David Hough opens Proficient Motorcycling with a crash that unfolded in much this same way. It is harder to manage than the usual in-too-hot reaction because your time factor is cut seriously by your closing speed with the other rider (or car or bus or truck... er, lorry for you). I've had a couple of close calls with four-wheeler drifting over into my lane, so I do not push it on public roads. There must be enough margin to change my line any way I need to.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:19 AM   #18
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In recent history, was in a hard right-hander, slight uphill. The turn tightened up (to my surprise) and I found myself dragging hard parts.

This put me 1/3 into the oncoming lane, along with an oncoming automobile. Not that I committed the sin of looking where I shouldn't, or even breaking my concentration. Tried to stay with my line, but the bike just slid over.

Please count me in. I'm also stupid.
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Old 07-17-2014, 12:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalePhase View Post
David Hough opens Proficient Motorcycling with a crash that unfolded in much this same way. It is harder to manage than the usual in-too-hot reaction because your time factor is cut seriously by your closing speed with the other rider (or car or bus or truck... er, lorry for you). I've had a couple of close calls with four-wheeler drifting over into my lane, so I do not push it on public roads. There must be enough margin to change my line any way I need to.

Yes, but you need to play a bit to know how to change your line in a corner at any speed you might ride. It takes practice moving around at whatever speeds in various manners to any place in a corner. Practice creates the fast action memory people call muscle memory to make the evasive maneuver - be it a blind decreasing radius turn, road kill, or another vehice encroaching into your lane.
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Old 07-17-2014, 03:04 PM   #20
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I dunno, two feet is a lot of clearance.

More than I have when lane spitting.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:45 AM   #21
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Good post TarTripper, nice little wake-up call and I'm glad I glanced at it.

What occurs to me is that you may well have got in a wee bit hot like this on several or many or even countless previous occasions but there was no-one coming so you got on with life.

If you enjoy that sort of riding - and I have and still do on occasion - then such moments are all but unavoidable, IMO.

The reality is, they are also very hazardous.

So then the question is, how to reduce their incidence.

Only obvious answer is to slow down a bit. A secondary one for you might be to notice that after an hour or so of high-level riding you get a bit fatigued. Makes sense to me and I'm sure I'd be the same. I will take that on board.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say about target fixation, but it seemed to me you were proposing - from the benefit of this experience - that in some high-stress, unfamiliar moments it is quite likely a person will not be able to avoid target-fixation.

That makes sense to me, too.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Rgconner View Post
I dunno, two feet is a lot of clearance.

More than I have when lane spitting.
Would you feel more comfortable with two feet of clearance splitting lanes while going with traffic or going against it?
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:12 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Yes, but you need to play a bit to know how to change your line in a corner at any speed you might ride. It takes practice moving around at whatever speeds in various manners to any place in a corner. Practice creates the fast action memory people call muscle memory to make the evasive maneuver - be it a blind decreasing radius turn, road kill, or another vehice encroaching into your lane.
I certainly agree with your points, and I think you could go a step further and say that every ride should be practice and that you should be wary of allowing yourself to indulge in sloppy riding. It's what you practice that you will do under stress. I'll recast my statement to say that you need to be very careful about when and where to push your limits, and on public, two-lane roads, the primary skill that needs to be kept sharp is that of reading the turn and getting some advance warning that it might tighten up before you can see your way out or might have some other surprises waiting for you. It's one thing to make the most of your opportunities to sharpen your skills but it's another to roll the dice while thinking happy thoughts.

I have a number of corners on my commute that I would love to take faster or to use for sharpening turning technique, including several on what is supposed to be a private road, but most do not offer enough sight distance to make wicking it up any more than an act of unwarranted optimism.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:08 AM   #24
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Would you feel more comfortable with two feet of clearance splitting lanes while going with traffic or going against it?
Personally, I have no problem with either, it's the unwillingness to cause other drivers to flip out which keeps me splitting same direction only
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:01 PM   #25
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I had an incident last year when I went into a corner a little too fast, with on coming traffic. I really had to beat down the impending panic and look where I wanted to go. It was give up and crash or commit myself to the maneuver. I think for most riders their nerve will give out before the tires will, unless you really over boil it. So, really, your only out in this is to commit to the curve and look where ya wanna go and you will probably make it...anything else and you are probably cooked.
We all make mistakes, but hopefully we can hold it together and escape with our ass in hand.
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Old 07-19-2014, 06:27 AM   #26
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I certainly agree with your points, and I think you could go a step further and say that every ride should be practice and that you should be wary of allowing yourself to indulge in sloppy riding. It's what you practice that you will do under stress. I'll recast my statement to say that you need to be very careful about when and where to push your limits, and on public, two-lane roads, the primary skill that needs to be kept sharp is that of reading the turn and getting some advance warning that it might tighten up before you can see your way out or might have some other surprises waiting for you. It's one thing to make the most of your opportunities to sharpen your skills but it's another to roll the dice while thinking happy thoughts.

I have a number of corners on my commute that I would love to take faster or to use for sharpening turning technique, including several on what is supposed to be a private road, but most do not offer enough sight distance to make wicking it up any more than an act of unwarranted optimism.

You appear to not have a grasp of what I said or I am misunderstanding what you've said.

It is not sloppy and it is not rolling the dice. It is developing skills in changing position by practicing a bit when the conditions (corners/surfaces) are known or have a good line of sight. Learn how tighten your line and you now have a tool to deal with a surprise decreasing radius turn should you suddenly realize it rounding a blind turn. It is practicing both mentally and physically how to change up a line mid-corner, not pushing the envelope. It is developing both knowledge and faith in the handling of the equipment - especially tires. It is incredible how tenacious the grip of tires can be - far beyond the skill of most riders. I have never had a tire break loose due to leaning on any pavement.

My line changing practice is not haphazard. It is not go zig zag at random, nor is it wobble about like a clown. Fact of the matter speed has nothing to do with it. I do not see where conclusions like that were drawn.
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Old 07-19-2014, 06:45 AM   #27
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where I live

[QUOTE=markk53;24649650] It is incredible how tenacious the grip of tires can be - far beyond the skill of most riders. I have never had a tire break loose due to leaning on any pavement.

There is sand and gravel on roads everywhere I go. Hard for me to imagine roads so clean that the tires can be relied upon to stick like that. I am not doubting what you say. But if you come to Vermont, you are warned.
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Old 07-19-2014, 03:56 PM   #28
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Personally, I have no problem with either, it's the unwillingness to cause other drivers to flip out which keeps me splitting same direction only
That and the fact you can't split on the center line legally.

But I have "shared the lane" with an oncoming motorcycle trying to pass an idiot. I have passed idiots when the oncoming riders intentionally move to their right to split their oncoming lane with me giving me room to pass. (The cager I was passing? Shit bricks and lit up the tires, almost taking out all of us when the SUV started fishtailing.)

Maybe it is just years of riding/racing a bicycle, sometimes at 40mph or more, in a peloton that means I don't sweat close tolerances.

I probably should, considering my fellow riders are generally not as skilled as I am by their own admission.
When I lead rides I always stay off the throttle to avoid exploding the field, even though I generally have half to 2/3 the displacement of all the other bikes.
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It is incredible how tenacious the grip of tires can be - far beyond the skill of most riders. I have never had a tire break loose due to leaning on any pavement.
There is sand and gravel on roads everywhere I go. Hard for me to imagine roads so clean that the tires can be relied upon to stick like that. I am not doubting what you say. But if you come to Vermont, you are warned.

First - read the line "tire break loose due to leaning on any pavement" is not "sand and gravel". That is junk on the road and part of what I've said to practice maneuvering to be able to avoid it. What a shame Vermont is still stuck in the early 20th century when it comes to roads... unless one rides a dual sport, then that's great!

I don't have much problem with that since I practice what I preach... I also ride dirt/gravel back roads and can deal with loose surfaces. I find being able to change lines mid corner and having some dual sport experience makes it so I can avoid the debris in the road.

By the way Ohio roads have debris on them in the spring from road salt/grit, but it is either cleaned off by the cities or blows off by traffic. The back roads can have gravel/dirt/silt etc from rain wash out and construction work (fracking construction is really good at that) so it's not like I don't have a clue how to deal with those conditions. Thankfully those conditions are not extremely common as apparently they are in Vermont. They can be quite random, running along on a great road, then around the next semi-blind turn is light gravel or silt in part of the turn. That is about 90% of the reason to be able to do what I speak of. I ride in my lane, with a safety margin enabling me to use evasive maneuvers as needed.

As for the tires sticking, probably 90% of the "ran off the road" accidents were on good corners, no debris, with riders who are, like the one rider's post here, afraid they'll lowside. When I was significantly younger I pretty much did exactly that - run wide and fall - because I didn't trust the tires. Since that time I have had a few times where the urge is to sit up and run off, but the knowledge and practice kicks in and I've leaned a bit more, maintaining my line or tightening it.

I also have had chance to use my off road experience when the back end of the street bike broke loose on some junk in a road at an intersection. A dab of the foot and some throttle work saved it when the rear stepped out. Also done some body english and throttle when the rear has slipped other times. It's nice to have a good spectrum of skills to pull from memory as needed - and as practiced.

If you are mainly a street rider, you have my condolences for Vermont roads sucking so bad.

I thought they probably had some nice riding up there...

Oh! I get it, you're just trying to chase us away, keep 'em all for yourself!
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:06 PM   #30
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Thanks for the wise words guys. I am indeed chastened by this experience and a wiser rider now.

However, one of the main points I was tryingt to get across has perhaps been missed. I know how to adjust a turn, and am comfortable leaning harder when I realise I've gone in too hot (which I don't do often).

What got me this time was target fixation, the 'target' being the other bike.
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