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Old 07-22-2014, 03:54 AM   #16
dazeedmonds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Maybe you need to a find a US only forum eh? That way you'd not get your knickers in a twist so often.
Ignore.
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Mike Vaughan View Post
The topic was California lane splitting. And you are trying to be Ms. Cryptic and it's not adding to this thread.

So answer my previous question, at least one of them and say it in terms even Californians can understand. Because your stock answer has been "Google it" which means you don't have one of your own. Please.

Thanks,

Mike
As far as I'm aware the only question, posed by you, that I didn't answer, was what I considered to be the larger picture.

If you're disappointed by either your inability to see the picture, large or small, or by my refusal to lead you by the hand to it, well, as they say, you'd best get used to it. Or learn to think for yourself. Or come to Vienna and we can argue the point over beer.
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
As far as I'm aware the only question, posed by you, that I didn't answer, was what I considered to be the larger picture.

If you're disappointed by either your inability to see the picture, large or small, or by my refusal to lead you by the hand to it, well, as they say, you'd best get used to it. Or learn to think for yourself. Or come to Vienna and we can argue the point over beer.
Help us out here, what is the larger picture as you see it.

The way I am seeing this is that the CHP had posted information regarding the legal practice of lane splitting. This was intended as a public education resource, to aid motorcyclists and motorists in understanding the safe and legal practice of lane splitting. One ex-bureaucrat decided that he did not like lane splitting and fought with the state until they gave up and had the information removed, thus reducing public safety.
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:18 AM   #19
Mike Vaughan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
As far as I'm aware the only question, posed by you, that I didn't answer, was what I considered to be the larger picture.

If you're disappointed by either your inability to see the picture, large or small, or by my refusal to lead you by the hand to it, well, as they say, you'd best get used to it. Or learn to think for yourself. Or come to Vienna and we can argue the point over beer.
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:33 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
Help us out here, what is the larger picture as you see it.

The way I am seeing this is that the CHP had posted information regarding the legal practice of lane splitting. This was intended as a public education resource, to aid motorcyclists and motorists in understanding the safe and legal practice of lane splitting. One ex-bureaucrat decided that he did not like lane splitting and fought with the state until they gave up and had the information removed, thus reducing public safety.

*sigh* you guys sure think small at times, if at all....

If you'd done some digging, you'd have realised that the guy's problem wasn't with information about lane-splitting at all. It was about so called "underground regulation" - which is illegal.

The bigger picture is that if no one objects, or highlights, or complains about backdoor/underground regulation/legislation is that we (the voters) get no say in its creation, most often to our detriment.

So yeah, taking down the guidelines about splitting sucks, but, assuming the ruling about underground regulation was correct, they were posted incorrectly. I'd expect to see the back in the not too distant future, albeit in a different format - maybe as an advisory or via the AMA for example.
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:45 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
*sigh* you guys sure think small at times, if at all....

If you'd done some digging, you'd have realised that the guy's problem wasn't with information about lane-splitting at all. It was about so called "underground regulation" - which is illegal.

The bigger picture is that if no one objects, or highlights, or complains about backdoor/underground regulation/legislation is that we (the voters) get no say in its creation, most often to our detriment.

So yeah, taking down the guidelines about splitting sucks, but, assuming the ruling about underground regulation was correct, they were posted incorrectly. I'd expect to see the back in the not too distant future, albeit in a different format - maybe as an advisory or via the AMA for example.

The problem is you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. There are no laws on the books in California prohibiting lane splitting, this means that this is a legal practice. No "underground regulations: were created, there is no need to create a law or regulation allowing something, only to prohibit it....
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Old 07-22-2014, 04:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
blah, blah, blah...
Only you, and other sophists thought they were rules or regulations, cite able by a peace officer. Everyone else follows the laws of DMV vehicle code and can decipher the apparently ambiguous "guidelines".

Hopefully 'crossing the street when it's safe' is in the code and not just another suggestion, or you may be white knighting yet another job trainer.
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
The problem is you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. There are no laws on the books in California prohibiting lane splitting, this means that this is a legal practice. No "underground regulations: were created, there is no need to create a law or regulation allowing something, only to prohibit it....
You may be right, but I am aware about the legislation, or rather, and critically, the lack of it, surrounding lane splitting in CA. And it seems to be that it's that very "non-existence" of legislation that is protecting it.

So you believe, and hey! you may be correct, that the claim that the posted guidelines didn't constitute "underground regulation"?

The CHP and OAL, and Mander* of course, however, did believe it to be "underground regulation". Here's their statement.

"Some have interpreted the recently published Motorcycle Lane Splitting Guidelines as rules, laws or regulations that could or would be enforced by the department," according to a CHP statement. "The guidelines were never intended for this purpose and were prepared simply as common sense traffic safety tips and to raise public awareness."

The Office of Administrative Law sided with Mandler*, noting that CHP Commissioner J. A. Farrow certified that his department would not "issue, use, enforce, or attempt to enforce the public education information." The OAL determined that posting the guidelines on the website was "issuing" them.


*Mander was the guy who lodged the complaint.

So, again, you guys need to be thanking him for, in his own indirect way, protecting lane-splitting, instead of maligning him.

I do think it's a shame they had to be taken down from the CHP site (they're still on the AMA site btw) but the reasons for it appear to be valid, IF, and I stress IF, you think about the bigger picture and the rather weird/unique way in which US law works.

If someone is so blinkered and can only see the removal of the guidelines and nothing else, well, that's their issue.
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:15 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
You may be right, but I am aware about the legislation, or rather, and critically, the lack of it, surrounding lane splitting in CA. And it seems to be that it's that very "non-existence" of legislation that is protecting it.

So you believe, and hey! you may be correct, that the claim that the posted guidelines didn't constitute "underground regulation"?

The CHP and OAL, and Mander* of course, however, did believe it to be "underground regulation". Here's their statement.

"Some have interpreted the recently published Motorcycle Lane Splitting Guidelines as rules, laws or regulations that could or would be enforced by the department," according to a CHP statement. "The guidelines were never intended for this purpose and were prepared simply as common sense traffic safety tips and to raise public awareness."

The Office of Administrative Law sided with Mandler*, noting that CHP Commissioner J. A. Farrow certified that his department would not "issue, use, enforce, or attempt to enforce the public education information." The OAL determined that posting the guidelines on the website was "issuing" them.


*Mander was the guy who lodged the complaint.

So, again, you guys need to be thanking him for, in his own indirect way, protecting lane-splitting, instead of maligning him.

I do think it's a shame they had to be taken down from the CHP site (they're still on the AMA site btw) but the reasons for it appear to be valid, IF, and I stress IF, you think about the bigger picture and the rather weird/unique way in which US law works.

If someone is so blinkered and can only see the removal of the guidelines and nothing else, well, that's their issue.
Not sure if it is unique or unusual, but in the US if it is not prohibited by law or regulation then is legal. It seems that the opposite would become extremely cumbersome after a period of time, imaging having to write laws and regulations defining everything is legal to do.. Do we need a law saying that it is okay to purchase a bottle of water while at the gas station, or can we assume from the lack of a law prohibiting it that it is fine.

This is why it is legal in California to lane split, there are no laws on the books regarding it. The other 49 states do have laws that specifically prohibit it unfortunately.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
Not sure if it is unique or unusual, but in the US if it is not prohibited by law or regulation then is legal. It seems that the opposite would become extremely cumbersome after a period of time, imaging having to write laws and regulations defining everything is legal to do.. Do we need a law saying that it is okay to purchase a bottle of water while at the gas station, or can we assume from the lack of a law prohibiting it that it is fine.

This is why it is legal in California to lane split, there are no laws on the books regarding it. The other 49 states do have laws that specifically prohibit it unfortunately.
I was actually referring to the way each state legislates such things, rather than doing it on a nationwide basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Vaughan View Post
Only you, and other sophists thought they were rules or regulations, cite able by a peace officer. Everyone else follows the laws of DMV vehicle code and can decipher the apparently ambiguous "guidelines".

Hopefully 'crossing the street when it's safe' is in the code and not just another suggestion, or you may be white knighting yet another job trainer.
Thanks for highlighting my point about how some folk are short-sighted.

Oh, and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Vaughan View Post
Everyone else follows the laws of DMV vehicle code
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Adriatic Loop August 09 Mandello Guzzi Protest Sept 09
"I've got the key to the gates of paradise...but I've got too many legs!!" Jeff
Guns don't kill people, people kill people but people with guns manage to kill more people than people without.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:36 AM   #26
pretbek
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
You may be right, but I am aware about the legislation, or rather, and critically, the lack of it, surrounding lane splitting in CA. And it seems to be that it's that very "non-existence" of legislation that is protecting it.

So you believe, and hey! you may be correct, that the claim that the posted guidelines didn't constitute "underground regulation"?

The CHP and OAL, and Mander* of course, however, did believe it to be "underground regulation". Here's their statement.

"Some have interpreted the recently published Motorcycle Lane Splitting Guidelines as rules, laws or regulations that could or would be enforced by the department," according to a CHP statement. "The guidelines were never intended for this purpose and were prepared simply as common sense traffic safety tips and to raise public awareness."

The Office of Administrative Law sided with Mandler*, noting that CHP Commissioner J. A. Farrow certified that his department would not "issue, use, enforce, or attempt to enforce the public education information." The OAL determined that posting the guidelines on the website was "issuing" them.


*Mander was the guy who lodged the complaint.

So, again, you guys need to be thanking him for, in his own indirect way, protecting lane-splitting, instead of maligning him.

I do think it's a shame they had to be taken down from the CHP site (they're still on the AMA site btw) but the reasons for it appear to be valid, IF, and I stress IF, you think about the bigger picture and the rather weird/unique way in which US law works.

If someone is so blinkered and can only see the removal of the guidelines and nothing else, well, that's their issue.
See, now that is a well argued and informative point you make.

Why don't you start with posts like this one, and omit the argumentative nitpicking? That way you don't sound like a troll half of the time and people would be more willing to actually read your arguments and follow your train of thought.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:41 AM   #27
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catweasal you are wrong about this and have little and no idea of our politics or law in our country, or my state

i assure you the person who brought this action has no interest in protecting our rights, lane splitting, or anything else and is a self involved, self serving, politically motivated a-hole who wants to further his puny career by any tiny means necessary. and this "issue" was most likely his easiest target because really, who the hell is going to care but some of us who ride?

unless this person RIDES he can kiss my ass. and if he does ride he can kiss it twice
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:48 AM   #28
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I'm actually pretty familiar with the concept of "hidden law," and I agree with the posters here who criticize it. Laws must be fair, universal and knowable in order to be just.

That said, if it's not illegal, it *is* legal-- or it ought to be, at least.

I believe the problem with lane splitting not being specified in law is that when the CHP puts regulations on how to do safe lane splitting, the question then turns to, what recourse do they have to counter unsafe lane splitting? Since there's no legal definition of safe lane splitting, how can there be a legal definition of unsafe lane splitting to justify traffic enforcement? When CHP tries to write you a ticket, it could be contestable because it's a judgment area, not a question of written law. And there should be no judgment areas in understanding of the law.

It's not so much that lane splitting is unclear, it's the fact that you could-- or perhaps could not, it's police whim, so who knows?-- get in trouble for doing something wrong when you are not told in the law how you can do it right.

Bottom line? This guy was a twit who I would like to slap in the head, but the twit had a larger philosophical point I happen to agree with. Personally, I see no harm in CA crafting an actual, written lane-splitting law. If anything, it's probably a *very good* thing for riders nationwide, as having a law on the books then gives other states something concrete to emulate and pass. No other U.S. state is going to eliminate laws against lane splitting and leave it in legal limbo like California does today, but if there's an actual, enforceable written law in place, we riders might be able to get more states to move on this, someday.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:00 AM   #29
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I understand the claim of underground regulation, and it does make sense. But to take away the one guideline that riders in Cali have to follow regarding procedural lane splitting and replace it with nothing, does not make sense...unless of course the CHP is trying to cover their @sses.

In their shoes: What if they were to get sued by someone killed while following the guidelines on lane splitting.

The proper way to handle this is to define lane splitting for 2-wheeled vehicles in the code and outline where, when, and how it should be done.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:01 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by daveinva View Post
I'm actually pretty familiar with the concept of "hidden law," and I agree with the posters here who criticize it. Laws must be fair, universal and knowable in order to be just.

That said, if it's not illegal, it *is* legal-- or it ought to be, at least.

I believe the problem with lane splitting not being specified in law is that when the CHP puts regulations on how to do safe lane splitting, the question then turns to, what recourse do they have to counter unsafe lane splitting? Since there's no legal definition of safe lane splitting, how can there be a legal definition of unsafe lane splitting to justify traffic enforcement? When CHP tries to write you a ticket, it could be contestable because it's a judgment area, not a question of written law. And there should be no judgment areas in understanding of the law.

It's not so much that lane splitting is unclear, it's the fact that you could-- or perhaps could not, it's police whim, so who knows?-- get in trouble for doing something wrong when you are not told in the law how you can do it right.

Bottom line? This guy was a twit who I would like to slap in the head, but the twit had a larger philosophical point I happen to agree with. Personally, I see no harm in CA crafting an actual, written lane-splitting law. If anything, it's probably a *very good* thing for riders nationwide, as having a law on the books then gives other states something concrete to emulate and pass. No other U.S. state is going to eliminate laws against lane splitting and leave it in legal limbo like California does today, but if there's an actual, enforceable written law in place, we riders might be able to get more states to move on this, someday.
You basically agree with me!
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