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Old 07-22-2014, 07:02 AM   #31
catweasel67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pretbek View Post
See, now that is a well argued and informative point you make.

Why don't you start with posts like this one, and omit the argumentative nitpicking? That way you don't sound like a troll half of the time and people would be more willing to actually read your arguments and follow your train of thought.
I'm gonna turn that around on you. I read the post, looked up "underground regulation", realised it's implications, read the CHP release on the issue, formed an opinion and posted it.

I didn't detail my thought process (at first), or write down how I got from A to Z (zed) because I didn't (and don't) consider it to be that much of a difficult concept to grasp....assuming folks had read beyond the original post, didn't just take it at face value and were capable of forming their own conclusions rather than thoughtlessly leaping on a bandwagon.

Now, if my assumption that the majority of folks here are intelligent, free-thinking and capable of independent thought was incorrect then please let me know and I'll start dumbing down my posts...well, OK, I won't, but it'll certainly explain quite a lot.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:52 AM   #32
windblown101
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Originally Posted by daveinva View Post
I'm actually pretty familiar with the concept of "hidden law," and I agree with the posters here who criticize it. Laws must be fair, universal and knowable in order to be just.

That said, if it's not illegal, it *is* legal-- or it ought to be, at least.

I believe the problem with lane splitting not being specified in law is that when the CHP puts regulations on how to do safe lane splitting, the question then turns to, what recourse do they have to counter unsafe lane splitting? Since there's no legal definition of safe lane splitting, how can there be a legal definition of unsafe lane splitting to justify traffic enforcement? When CHP tries to write you a ticket, it could be contestable because it's a judgment area, not a question of written law. And there should be no judgment areas in understanding of the law.

It's not so much that lane splitting is unclear, it's the fact that you could-- or perhaps could not, it's police whim, so who knows?-- get in trouble for doing something wrong when you are not told in the law how you can do it right.

Bottom line? This guy was a twit who I would like to slap in the head, but the twit had a larger philosophical point I happen to agree with. Personally, I see no harm in CA crafting an actual, written lane-splitting law. If anything, it's probably a *very good* thing for riders nationwide, as having a law on the books then gives other states something concrete to emulate and pass. No other U.S. state is going to eliminate laws against lane splitting and leave it in legal limbo like California does today, but if there's an actual, enforceable written law in place, we riders might be able to get more states to move on this, someday.
So you're saying you are in favor of following the letter of the law versus the intent of law?

I disagree.

Life and circumstances are far to complex to put into print an absolute law for every possible scenario life can throw at us. As legislators continue to strive to cover every possible scenario in print the laws become hopelessly complex and often conflict one another. Any law has intent as it's basis. It is the intent, not our rather poor ability to express that intent into the written word that matters.

There are times when one might break the letter of the law law in order to save someone from harm. Should that person be even be charged much less convicted?

Let's say I'm walking down the street and see a house on fire and hear a baby crying inside. The front door is locked and a break it down and enter the home to get the kid out. By the letter of the law I'm guilty of breaking and entering, hell, maybe even kidnapping. We will always need at apply judgement to any written law in order to be a just society.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:11 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
I'm gonna turn that around on you. I read the post, looked up "underground regulation", realised it's implications, read the CHP release on the issue, formed an opinion and posted it.

I didn't detail my thought process (at first), or write down how I got from A to Z (zed) because I didn't (and don't) consider it to be that much of a difficult concept to grasp....assuming folks had read beyond the original post, didn't just take it at face value and were capable of forming their own conclusions rather than thoughtlessly leaping on a bandwagon.

Now, if my assumption that the majority of folks here are intelligent, free-thinking and capable of independent thought was incorrect then please let me know and I'll start dumbing down my posts...well, OK, I won't, but it'll certainly explain quite a lot.
I get what you're saying and I happen to agree with you, so let me put things to you in simpler terms. Stop coming off like a pretentious tool and people will like you better.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Vacman View Post
I get what you're saying and I happen to agree with you, so let me put things to you in simpler terms. Stop coming off like a pretentious tool and people will like you better.
Except that I'm not really here to make friends...I'm here to express my opinions.

Also, maybe I am, in actual fact, a pretentious tool
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catweasel67 screwed with this post 07-22-2014 at 08:23 AM
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:21 AM   #35
Vacman
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Except that I'm not really here to make friends...I'm here to express my opinions.

Also, maybe I am, in actual fact, an pretentious tool
Fair enough. Carry on then.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:22 AM   #36
catweasel67
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Originally Posted by Vacman View Post
Fair enough. Carry on then.
Very kind of you
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:41 AM   #37
filmfan
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Does the CHP publish guidelines for any other aspect of driving? For example, maybe like driving in the rain ,or low-visibility situations? The point being that just like with lane-splitting or at any other time, you can be ticketed for not driving safely in the officer's estimation, even though what you're doing is otherwise legal.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:45 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by vaara View Post
just because some random pinhead got a hair up his ass over proper administrative procedure or some such ridiculous BS.

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/...m_website.aspx

This doesn't change anything re: the legal status of lane-splitting in California, but it does make it more difficult for riders (and cagers) to locate that information.


This is great news, I could not be more pleased. The "guidelines" were absolutely a backdoor route to regulation, and had the terrible effect of leading many to think that Lane-Splitting was now legal and codified.

The legal status of lane-splitting in California is very simple:

Lane-Splitting is not illegal.

It's not defined in the state vehicle code, and that's just fine by me. What is defined are various measures of unsafe vehicle operation. The CHP guidelines were dangerous in that they created the expectation in cage drivers that motorcyclists were now somehow subject to follow those exact guidelines, which is not the case at all.

Under current law, which makes no mention of lane-splitting, I can filter/lane-split at speeds and in conditions that I feel comfortable with. Likewise, LE can pull me over when, in their opinion, I have been riding in an unsafe manner. That's a somewhat ambiguous situation, but one I can definitely live with. And if the vehicle code is going to be changed, to address lane-splitting, then let it be changed and codified out in the open, in a binding and legal manner.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:18 AM   #39
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With his name published, he will not get much sleep from now on, and he better not leave his car unattended anywhere in Sacramento.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:24 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
Way to ignore the entire issue regarding the fact that you think that removing public education information regarding a legal activity designed to promote safety is a good thing.....

And BTW I have no issue with the international nature of this forum, 99% of the time I think it is a wonderful thing and I thoroughly enjoy the perspective that is brought to the conversation by it. You however are normally the 1% that I take issue with in your habit of taking every opportunity to make a snide comment about issues here in the US which add nothing to the conversation.
You want to know why being "snide" comes so easily to me Navy Chief. See below. Some of you guys make it so easy, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgconner View Post
With his name published, he will not get much sleep from now on, and he better not leave his car unattended anywhere in Sacramento.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:31 AM   #41
Rgconner
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FWIW, things have gotten safer for motorcyclists since those guidelines were published.

Many local stations/newspapers ran the story in different forms for several weeks. They ran them again at the start of summer. Drivers have been more courteous about leaving gaps and not intentionally closing off the gap to block motorcyclists.

I have seen CHP pull over assholes that do it for the first time in 20 years of riding.

We can't have a discussion about passing a law to make it legal because of the non-motorcycle riding publics ignorance about the subject, and the behavior of the "loud pipes" and squid riders who spook drivers when lane splitting.

The broader public has no idea how it is done in Europe, the traffic jam reduction it provides, or the fact that Motorcyclists are at their greatest risk in stop and go traffic.

It really boils down to "they cut in line"... as if that were anything but an emotional argument: you can cut in line too buddy, ride a motorcycle. (Which the wife/SO won't let them have, most likely... bitter clingers)
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:34 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
You want to know why being "snide" comes so easily to me Navy Chief. See below. Some of you guys make it so easy, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Hey, I got something to lose, so I am not one who is going to make his life hell.

(Which is why it is not written in the first person, but your eagerness to be snide skipped that detail, troll)

The chatter at the local bike shop and watering holes is that the bike community at large is not pleased with this guy. His name is Mudd.

Your argument of him doing the right thing or the wrong thing is not the issue, the issue is 1%'ers and wannabe 1%'ers not taking kindly to it.

I am sure they would listen to reason if you came over and tried to talk them out of it....
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:47 AM   #43
catweasel67
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Originally Posted by Rgconner View Post
Hey, I got something to lose, so I am not one who is going to make his life hell.

(Which is why it is not written in the first person, but your eagerness to be snide skipped that detail, troll)

The chatter at the local bike shop and watering holes is that the bike community at large is not pleased with this guy. His name is Mudd.

Your argument of him doing the right thing or the wrong thing is not the issue, the issue is 1%'ers and wannabe 1%'ers not taking kindly to it.

I am sure they would listen to reason if you came over and tried to talk them out of it....
Well, obviously I can't speak for the 1%ers in the US but if they're anything like the 1%ers over here, they could give a flying fuck about guidelines...

And I find your suggestion that they care so much about the removal of those guidelines laughable. Ridiculous even.

As for the community at large, if they're as stupid as you, then I'd not be surprised at their anger. I'll say it again - he's done you guys in CA a favour by lodging his complaint. Californian bikers do not want lane splitting to become a legislative issue - I'd suggest having a law actually endorsing it would be extremely unlikely given the risk averse nature of most politicians.

And yes, that's what I'd say if I was over there. The fact that you didn't speaks volumes about your character, especially when they're threatening someone, even in bravado, because of their ignorance/stupidity.

In closing - grow a pair fuckface and have a nice day.
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"I've got the key to the gates of paradise...but I've got too many legs!!" Jeff
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:54 AM   #44
vaara OP
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Originally Posted by Rgconner View Post
Many local stations/newspapers ran the story in different forms for several weeks. They ran them again at the start of summer.
Yes, I saw a lane-splitting PSA on SyFy (of all places) a few weeks ago, and almost spat out my venti half-soy half-almond free trade dark roast macchiato with 3 pumps of caramel and 1 of vanilla.

Which begs the question: is information aimed at car drivers (i.e. "here's this thing that some motorcyclists do - watch out for them") *also* a form of "backdoor regulation"?

(heh. I said backdoor.)
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:10 AM   #45
Rgconner
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
As for the community at large, if they're as stupid as you, then I'd not be surprised at their anger. I'll say it again - he's done you guys in CA a favour by lodging his complaint. Californian bikers do not want lane splitting to become a legislative issue - I'd suggest having a law actually endorsing it would be extremely unlikely given the risk averse nature of most politicians.

In closing - grow a pair fuckface and have a nice day.
More stupidity on your part. I never expressed an opinion of my own on the matter, you jumped to conclusions. And then you resorted to name calling... very grown up on your part.

I would prefer we have a real law giving us a lane splitting rights, but the unwashed masses of cagers who believe they are the only legitimate traffic on the road will never let it pass.

"1%" is an exaggeration even in California, there is one bike for every 50 people, and half the riders are not in a patched club.
I doubt they make up even 1% of the riders.

So typical commuting/pleasure riders like myself stand no chance of getting a lane splitting law... we are just too outnumbered.
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