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Old 07-24-2014, 05:50 AM   #16
JohnCW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
I won't argue that braking before turning is not a better, safer practice - and it's what I endeavor to do. But if the need arises, I'll brake while leaned with no drama. I practice it. Running wide or crashing because you're superstitious about getting on the brakes while you still have a bunch of available traction is not "safer".
You beat me to the very point I was thinking as I was reading the previous responses. Doing all your braking before you reach the corner may be a great theory for a beginner, but what happens when this beginner makes an error in judgement and finds themselves coming into a corner to hot? Don't let that happen is probably what someone is going to reply. There are riders who've gone into a corner to hot, and those who lie that they haven't.

Having the skill and confidence to be able to brake into a corner is IMO an essential skill for every rider. Even if you don't want to be an intermediate/advanced level rider you will find yourself needing to do it one day because you will make an error in judgement. It is fanciful to think you won't. You will be far safer being prepared in advance to handle this situation when (not if) it arises, and that is by progressively practicing the technique building up your skill, confidence, and understanding of your bikes capability.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Slowing before a corner is good. A good idea when it works. Braking in a corner is fine. You can brake fairly hard while leaned over fairly steeply if you are smooth. Been doing it for decades, when I have to. Besides overcooking the corner there are multitudes or reasons to need braking in a curve, deer jumping out, gravel coming into view, stopped car ahead, whatever, it ain't no big deal. Just be smooth, and hold the bike down on it's line, it will tend to go straight.
Panicking and "Grabbing" the brake is not so good, but if you do it's a quick lowside, relatively harmless.

I believe the idiotic idea of standing the bike up before braking has put more riders off the road and into a coffin than anything else. Parking lot shit, it is a terrible idea on a road with anything dangerous off the side. If you can't brake and turn at the same time yet you have no business on a real road in real traffic.
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:30 AM   #18
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Slowing before a corner is good. A good idea when it works. Braking in a corner is fine. You can brake fairly hard while leaned over fairly steeply if you are smooth. Been doing it for decades, when I have to. Besides overcooking the corner there are multitudes or reasons to need braking in a curve, deer jumping out, gravel coming into view, stopped car ahead, whatever, it ain't no big deal. Just be smooth, and hold the bike down on it's line, it will tend to go straight.
Panicking and "Grabbing" the brake is not so good, but if you do it's a quick lowside, relatively harmless.

I believe the idiotic idea of standing the bike up before braking has put more riders off the road and into a coffin than anything else. Parking lot shit, it is a terrible idea on a road with anything dangerous off the side. If you can't brake and turn at the same time yet you have no business on a real road in real traffic.
So basically you think the Idaho Star and the MSF (not to mentioned practically every single basic riding skills course I've ever heard of) are doing it wrong and that folks should learn how to "trail brake" before being allowed on public roads?
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:33 AM   #19
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downshift before entry, compression braking and roll on throttle...practice so you dont need to touch brakes unless really needed.
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:37 AM   #20
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downshift before entry, compression braking and roll on throttle...practice so you dont need to touch brakes unless really needed.
Please don't :p
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:49 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
So basically you think the Idaho Star and the MSF (not to mentioned practically every single basic riding skills course I've ever heard of) are doing it wrong and that folks should learn how to "trail brake" before being allowed on public roads?
He made this statement:
Quote:
I believe the idiotic idea of standing the bike up before braking has put more riders off the road and into a coffin than anything else. Parking lot shit, it is a terrible idea on a road with anything dangerous off the side.
There is some truth to it. If you're rounding a 90degree corner at low speed, perhaps this can work. But if you are on twisty, rural roads, particularly in the mountains, with drops off the lowside and banks on the high (in other words, every road around me), you should be able to brake in a turn. If you come into a turn and a deer jumps out and you "straighten then brake", you'll run out of road before stopping. Granted, MSF does put more emphasis in swerving to avoid obsticales, no one argues with that. Still, in the deer scenario, scrubbing off speed and seeing which way that furbearing terrorist is going to go before committing to a swerve is pretty useful.

I can understand the reason for that teaching approach for beginning riders. Most braking certainly should be done before rolling into a corner, even if you trailbrake. I can't argue with MSF instructors who have a lot of experience with "what works". But it seems like a risky approach to teach only "one way". IMO, a better approach would be to make it clear why "brake then turn" is taught in basic, with an understanding that "brake while turning" is important in the "real world" and will be taught in more advanced courses.

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Old 07-24-2014, 08:51 AM   #22
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I took the MSF Advance Rider Course earlier this month, they taught both techniques, braking before the turn and trail braking, and did a pretty good job of explaining why, and when, they are used.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:05 AM   #23
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I took the MSF Advance Rider Course earlier this month, they taught both techniques, braking before the turn and trail braking, and did a pretty good job of explaining why, and when, they are used.
I'm going to have to look into an Advanced Rider Course. The ID Star "experienced" course is geared towards riders with IIRC 3 month or a very few hundred miles experience riding. It's still a good, worthwhile course. It does teach you to practice max braking (which I actually do on a deserted backroad about once a month) and swerving (hey, that's what those dashed lines in the center of the road are for!). The focus on "looking through the curve" was very useful and worth the redundant training. They do teach "never brake in a turn" and "straighten then brake". I expect it's the best approach with riders with very limited experience; it does reinforce the basic idea.

I'd like to try a more advanced course as well and see how they teach both approaches. I'm not sure what Idaho teaches in their advaced cornering and braking classes.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:17 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
So basically you think the Idaho Star and the MSF (not to mentioned practically every single basic riding skills course I've ever heard of) are doing it wrong and that folks should learn how to "trail brake" before being allowed on public roads?
I'll answer it, if they don't yes they are wrong. A previous post says he was taught both methods. If I were developing a basic course I'd probably even consider have a drill where they had to brake coming into a corner and come to a complete stop mid corner. Start slow on gentle corners and build up to a moderate pace moderate corner.

How does anyone go down a steep twistie mountain road with one curve snaking straight into another all the way from top to bottom without being on the brakes going into corners? You are basically in a continuous corner. The same sort of road where if a car is in front of you the driver has his foot on the brake virtually from top to bottom and all you can smell is his brakes overheating. He's on the brakes in the curves, so you have no choice but to be on the brakes through ever corner as well.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:19 AM   #25
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I'll answer it, if they don't yes they are wrong. A previous post says he was taught both methods. If I were developing a basic course I'd probably even consider have a drill where they had to brake coming into a corner and come to a complete stop mid corner. Start slow on gentle corners and build up to a moderate pace moderate corner.

How does anyone go down a steep twistie mountain road with one curve snaking straight into another all the way from top to bottom without being on the brakes going into corners? You are basically in a continuous corner. The same sort of road where if a car is in front of you the driver has his foot on the brake virtually from top to bottom and all you can smell is his brakes overheating. He's on the brakes in the curves, so you have to as well.
But the basic courses don't do that.

Any thoughts on why they think their approach is correct?
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:33 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
MSF (and others) teach to do all braking before turning. I assume the reasoning is that while leaned, some of your traction is being used for turning.
...but not ALL of it. And ironically, I see people talking about engine braking and rolling on throttle while leaned - but those use traction, too. Why are they not so taboo and verboten?
IMO, it's because most new riders are very ham handed, and it's very easy to overdo it on the brakes. Engine braking and rolling on the throttle are harder to get wrong, especially on the low power bikes MSF uses in their classes.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:33 AM   #27
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While I agree that completing your braking before leaning is the safest behavior for the street (and its unpredictable surfaces), I love the feeling of starting the leaning while still braking. All that maximized feedback you get from the front tire being pressed hard on the surface is pure magic.

Of course, if you don't want to loose the front end, the act of leaning should be accompanied by a simultaneous relieving of front brake pressure.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:33 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
But the basic courses don't do that.

Any thoughts on why they think their approach is correct?
Just asking in case I am not following, are you confusing braking in a corner vs making an emergency stop, or stopping in general, while in a corner/turning?
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:38 AM   #29
catweasel67
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Just asking in case I am not following, are you confusing braking in a corner vs making an emergency stop, or stopping in general, while in a corner/turning?
The question is why don't basic riding courses teach trail braking.....when some of the posters here seem to believe that riders don't belong on the road unless they can.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:40 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
But the basic courses don't do that.

Any thoughts on why they think their approach is correct?
No idea. As others have said I think its a basic fundamental skill to be able to brake safely through a corner at the pace a beginner should be riding. You have to do it when you ride e.g. the downhill example I gave, the unseen car broken down just around the corner taking up a fair part of the lane, the tightening radius corner at the end of a long more gradual curve, the little river from rain a week ago running across the road in the corner that you don't see till the last moment, etc, etc. A rider not equipped to be able to handle these situations safely is not yet ready to ride on the road.
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