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Old 07-24-2014, 09:48 AM   #31
JohnCW
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Originally Posted by MN_Smurf View Post
IMO, it's because most new riders are very ham handed, and it's very easy to overdo it on the brakes.
Isn't that the very reason that it should be taught? What's their logic... we don't teach something important because we consider it hard for a new rider..... logic doesn't make sense to me. Lets alter it than, we don't teach it because we don't think its important for a beginner to be able to brake in a corner if they have to.... still having a problem with the logic.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:55 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
I see people talking about engine braking and rolling on throttle while leaned - but those use traction, too. Why are they not so taboo and verboten?
Engine braking in a curve is still trail braking the rear, so that's been covered. The throttle roll can both use traction and conserve it; the idea is to reap other benefits with that traction. A light roll-on sets the suspension "up" and keeps it there, improving cornering clearance and stability. It also compensates for the light deceleration that occurs in a lean simply because a leaned bike is operating on a smaller tire diameter.
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:57 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Isn't that the very reason that it should be taught? What's their logic... we don't teach something important because we consider it hard for a new rider..... logic doesn't make sense to me. Lets alter it than, we don't teach it because we don't think its important for a beginner to be able to brake in a corner if they have to.... still having a problem with the logic.
I would guess it is due to a matter of time and building upon skills, and not "dumping" everything on a new rider all at once. The beginner courses are aimed at people with very little if any riding experience, and are often one or at most 2 day courses. No one argues that "brake then turn" is easier to teach and a safe way to ride. I can understand teaching that "foundation", with a focus on building on that and teaching more advanced skills later. "Brake while turning" certainly takes a higher level of skill.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Isn't that the very reason that it should be taught? What's their logic... we don't teach something important because we consider it hard for a new rider..... logic doesn't make sense to me. Lets alter it than, we don't teach it because we don't think its important for a beginner to be able to brake in a corner if they have to.... still having a problem with the logic.
I don't think it isn't in the curricula because it's not important. Personally, I regard trail braking as a tool to use when I choose. From a training point of view, having to brake in a corner because I've entered it too hot is an indicator that I've done something wrong, so how do we prevent that? Look further and press more is probably a better overall solution because new riders have probably come from cars where laying into the brake has few consequences, and because most riders panic well before the bike runs out of capability.

My opinion only: applying the brakes in a lean changes traction, stability, and cornering clearance (likely at a high rate), whereas looking further and pressing more retains two of the three, and changes traction at a lesser rate.

Ultimately, whether or not trail braking with either brake or the engine is taught may be a moot point, because students do it. Initially they find that changing the throttle or braking into a turn is an "oh shit" moment and it's not fun. As confidence increases, however, they find themselves braking later and later into the turn. While we coach otherwise in both cases, students learn that it can be done, and that it can be exciting.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:11 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by IdahoRenegade View Post
I would guess it is due to a matter of time and building upon skills, and not "dumping" everything on a new rider all at once. The beginner courses are aimed at people with very little if any riding experience, and are often one or at most 2 day courses. No one argues that "brake then turn" is easier to teach and a safe way to ride. I can understand teaching that "foundation", with a focus on building on that and teaching more advanced skills later. "Brake while turning" certainly takes a higher level of skill.
No doubt probably the reason. I'm not familiar with the MSF course or its intention. It sounds like its about the same as the one that new riders must undergo before they are allowed out on the road where I live. And that's just what it is, the most basic course possible to hopefully keep you from getting done in the first day or so and have a chance to figure the rest out for yourself.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:11 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
The question is why don't basic riding courses teach trail braking.....when some of the posters here seem to believe that riders don't belong on the road unless they can.
Great question, I don't agree with the statement but that's me. When I see/hear statements like that, the basic message given is, if you don't have every skill to do something, you shouldn't do it.

These are just my thoughts as a fairly long time rider and former MSF instructor, the MSF beginner course is a very basic course, really designed to teach someone who has never ridden how to ride. There really is no way that in 2 days you can teach a group of students the basics of motorcycles and then more advanced techniques like trail braking.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by 2aRover View Post
You're correct.

The program doesn't think of it as counter to trail braking, just "in lieu of" or something to be taught after learning more basic skills. For example, in our Precision Riding Clinic, we couldn't care less if you trail brake, and will only coach it if it is interfering with your ability to complete the exercise.
Yeah. Pretty much any state-sponsored, open to any rider on any bike safety class, is going to focus (hopefully help RE-focus) riders on getting the basics down first. I suspect very few riders they see there have that.

I know quite a lot of the riders we see at TEAM Oregon's ART- taught on a 3/4 mile kart track- are barely in control of direction, let alone precise control of brakes and throttle.

Speaking of- you comin' to ART this year?
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:31 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by smithe View Post
When I see/hear statements like that, the basic message given is, if you don't have every skill to do something, you shouldn't do it.
I think these discussion result from somehow the message ending up that trail-braking is something that one should't do. I've seen it stated a number of times, it only belongs on a race track. I struggle to understand how someone can ride and never be on the brakes in a corner, can't get my head around it at all.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:43 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post

Speaking of- you comin' to ART this year?
Planning on it. I got a new Tiger Explorer in October and I need alllllllll the help I can get.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:04 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
I struggle to understand how someone can ride and never be on the brakes in a corner, can't get my head around it at all.
Mostly they only ride as far as the nearest roadside cliff.

Stand the bike up, apply the brakes, and freefall for a while.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:28 PM   #41
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Yes, the Basic Rider Course is really basic. I had never ridden a motorcycle until I took the course, and I didn't even understand how sequential shifting worked. Most of the people in my class were longtime riders who were taking the course so they could get their endorsements and ride legally.

The point being: The course is for newbies.

It's a few hours in a classroom and a few hours on the riding range. You can't teach everything, and trail braking would have to be way down the list. It's more important to learn how to swerve, how to run over a 2-by-4, how to maneuver in a parking lot, than to learn how to trail brake when the time is so limited.

No one taught me how to trail brake. When I finally learned what trail braking was, after riding daily a couple of years, I realized that I had been using the technique for months. It's just braking late and easing up on the brake while you're in the turn. As you gain confidence, you just start doing it naturally.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:53 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
I struggle to understand how someone can ride and never be on the brakes in a corner, can't get my head around it at all.
either they don't actually street ride, they're full of shit, or they brake in corners without even realizing it.

you would not get very far in the real world without crashing if you never braked in corners on the street...
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Old 07-24-2014, 01:23 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
either they don't actually street ride, they're full of shit, or they brake in corners without even realizing it.

you would not get very far in the real world without crashing if you never braked in corners on the street...
So you go around every corner hard on the brakes eh?

Must be a dull life.
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Old 07-24-2014, 01:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
So you go around every corner hard on the brakes eh?
yeah, that is EXACTLY what i said.
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Old 07-24-2014, 01:47 PM   #45
catweasel67
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
yeah, that is EXACTLY what i said.
So you're saying there are some corners where you're not on the brakes?

So,...trail-baking isn't a necessary skill?

First you say it is, and then you say it's not...which is it?

Is trail-braking a necessary skill for learners or not?

Put another way..

Will learners die/crash if they don't learn trail-breaking?

Don't worry...I can sense your inner turmoil from here.....the answer is that they don't. It isn't a necessary skill and many folks manage to ride their entire lives without trail-breaking....ever!

Amazing eh?

Is it a technique worth learning? Sure. Is it. Is it necessary? Will you die without it? Will you crash without doing it?

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catweasel67 screwed with this post 07-24-2014 at 02:17 PM
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