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Old 07-28-2014, 08:55 PM   #3916
Human Ills
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Originally Posted by UnsureFooting View Post
But we wouldn't need 100 different ways of doing it. How different is the architecture from bike to bike, within the same genre? Take out the engine and the exhaust, look at where the wheels and swing arms and controls and forks and all the relevant bits are.


They aren't that different.
If it can be made to work, then cool
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:31 PM   #3917
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Mrs Sweetie and I went to our fave bbq restaurant that has outdoor seating last night. There were half a dozen plus Harleys out front. A brace of Road glides, a gorgeous new Amber Whiskey 2014 Ultra , two street glides, one softail, and one sporty. No other riders tho the place is usually packed since the food is good.

We did the demographics - Two riders out of 9 had helmets, both were half helmets. All riders had HD shirts or HD logo jackets. The sporty rider took off half crocked and almost left his woman on her arse before she mounted the bike. Two of the bikes had earbleed exhausts, the other were stockers or slightly modified.

We couldn't ride in last night but if we would have been riding the RK we'd have been the only two "bikers" with full face helmets.

Anyhoo, speaking of stereotypes do you ride your bicycle with those cute little spandex bicycling outfits?
Well after twenty years on the internet I finally found the person who was always perfect and beyond reproach.

Good to see someone who can really criticize those guys who rode to the restaurant.

Of course the fact you drove your car while they rode shouldn't make your rebuke any less stinging.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:03 PM   #3918
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Well after twenty years on the internet I finally found the person who was always perfect and beyond reproach.

Good to see someone who can really criticize those guys who rode to the restaurant.

Of course the fact you drove your car while they rode shouldn't make your rebuke any less stinging.
Not to mention all of those ill equipped bikers most likely lost their mothers at a young age and now need somebody to tell them how to dress.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:09 PM   #3919
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Not to mention all of those ill equipped bikers most likely lost their mothers at a young age and now need somebody to tell them how to dress.
Stupid Post hoc bastards. The lot of 'em.
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:49 PM   #3920
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Authenticity.

Jason Cormier has posted a great piece on motorcycle authenticity over at Odd Bike. http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/07/edit...city.html#more

It's thoughtfull, well written, and worth reading.

Wild Hogs and pirates get called out: "We reference our past and play dress up with the trappings of bygone groups, putting on pageants of leather and chrome and noise that are as much the product of marketing as they are an a contrived expression of “individuality”."

Harley gets praise: "Harley-Davidson is, all marketing aside, the only authentic cruiser. They have an unbroken lineage that has survived depressions, recessions, wars, and image problems, a purity of antiquated design that respects their heritage"

Japanese manufacturers get disrespected: "To attempt to copy a Harley is to commit the ultimate sin: to build something that is at its core a sham, a shameless knockoff that exhibits all the elements of the original with none of the heritage or spirit intact. The Japanese marques are notorious for this."

And praised: "We should celebrate the birth of the superbike and the refinement of the modern motorcycle brought on by the strength of Japanese engineering, not the oil-tight copies of British twins and goofy Harley clones that cluttered showrooms for decades."

Nostalgia recreators are challenged: "There is also the problem of missing the point of those old cafe racers and stripped down bobbers. They were products of purpose. Their aesthetics were a result of the desire for more performance, less weight, and simplification. Their builders were not deliberately trying to channel any particular "look" - that came naturally from the pursuit of performance. The modern cafe racer is merely a pretender, an attempt to replicate the appearance of this purity of construction without the substance."

Sparrowhawk screwed with this post 07-31-2014 at 05:56 PM
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:20 PM   #3921
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What is Harley doing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk View Post

Japanese manufacturers get disrespected: "To attempt to copy a Harley is to commit the ultimate sin: to build something that is at its core a sham, a shameless knockoff that exhibits all the elements of the original with none of the heritage or spirit intact. The Japanese marques are notorious for this."

So true. But at one time they made Cruisers that were genuine at heart. The GS550L the KZ440LTD and the Maxim. They sold plenty and they were good bikes. But Americans wanted V-Twins and they are copycats. A new in-line four with teardrop tank, buckhorn bars and a step seat would be cool these days. I bought one in the 80's and might buy another if they made it.
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Oilhed screwed with this post 07-31-2014 at 09:48 PM
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:23 PM   #3922
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So true. But at one time they made Cruisers that were genuine at heart. The GS550L the KZ440LTD and the Maxim. They sold plenty and they were good bikes.
Good in what way?

To quote Jason, "You've stumbled upon one of the key problems of motorcycle design: styling vs design. There is a distinct gulf between the two - the "best" motorcycles reconcile the two elements in a harmonious package that avoids wholesale compromise. A true motorcycle designer works from the nuts and bolts up, from the chassis."

From my viewpoint, all the early Japanese cruisers, such as you mention, were cheap alterations of existing powertrains modified to fit into the "style" of a cruiser/chopper. Same engine, same transmission, installed into a poor handling styling exercise to sell a few bikes. You may appreciate the style but they lacked legitimacy from any heritage.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:58 PM   #3923
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Jason Cormier has spoken. Close the internet.
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Old 08-01-2014, 04:54 AM   #3924
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Interesting read, I am not sure I agree with some of his points though. Yes the Japanese have knocked off the V-Twin cruisers, no arguing that. But the concept that if you were not the original creator of a class of bikes then you can not build a cruiser is disingenuous. Competition in the market creates a better product for the consumer, without competition in the Cruiser space would the HD bikes be as good as they are today?
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Old 08-01-2014, 05:56 AM   #3925
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Interesting read. A lot of ire is directed to the cafe racer hacked together garage find. There is a rampant amount of it, but that to me is very typical of American Fads. We tend to find an idea and attack it until we're all just so sick of it we can't stand it any more. I get the frustration with that, and share it, especially when I see some beautiful machine sacrificed by some PBR drinking hipster with a 3" hole in his cheek to create something only a perma-baked art teacher could love. Especially when said hipster is 19, and has no idea what a cafe racer really is and the only thing he's ever read with a black and white picture in it is an Instagram post.

I think the author's thoughts on modern makers creating throwbacks is a little off the mark though. People obviously have a desire to own those older bikes, they appreciate the look of them, and for a lot of people they used to own them. Why not offer them something that looks similar and has modern features? Especially something like the Honda CB1100, it's certainly not affecting Honda's ability to create new and interesting (NM4) if ugly (to some) bikes.

H-D has been doing it for decades. (I really don't mean that to bash H-D) They've made the same bike for a long time, I don't personally think that because you've got "heritage" or "authenticity" that you get to keep on making the same bikes year after year after year with only minor changes. But people love them, so why should they push to create new and wild things? New and wild things are expensive, and you've got buyers lined up around the block to buy Sportsters and E-Glides. It's just good business, you know they'll sell. The Japanese manufacturers had to compete with a dead set mentality that a v-twin cruiser was the only motorcycle for anyone ever in America, so yeah, they're going to copy it, again it's just good business.

Some people might say that they are soulless, but what does that even mean? Want to talk about soulless, no heritage? How about the mini-van? Absolute atrocity, and a huge insult to the ICE. Henry Ford would have had kittens and died had he ever had the misfortune to lay eyes on one.
But how many kids will have fond memories of family road trips, and having to sit in separate rows from their siblings because they couldn't just shut up and let mom and dad listen to the GPS? Maybe soul doesn't come from the machine, maybe it comes from the history of that machine, maybe it comes from the memories created with it. My first bike was a V Star 250, Japanese, under-powered, too quiet, frame was too small; in short it was the Anti-Harley cruiser. But it was my first bike, I took my first trips on a highway (on two wheels) my first long pleasure ride, the first time my daughter rode with me on a bike, the first time she had to figure out what to do with a helmet and gloves and a heavy unwieldy jacket all day when she wasn't on the bike. All of those memories came from a "soulless" Japanese cruiser.

I don't think that any bike has a soul until a rider gives it one. Heritage? Just means you know how to make a good machine, it doesn't mean that you have the exclusive right to make one. Hell, maybe that PBR drinking hipster is giving some old barn find a soul....





Nah. He's just fucking up good engineering.
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Old 08-01-2014, 07:04 AM   #3926
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Finally this thread begins to find some sense, and thought put into it. It' about time it drifted away from the "my jacket is leather, yours is textile so you suck" arguments.

dare I ask though, where does Triumph, BMW and Ducati fit into this debate. These companies all with long standing traditions have built many varieties of bikes, ranging from cruisers to dual sports to track bikes. They have built bikes to cover the gamut of design and power, have been innovative in their technology, and yet have never tried to copy "the Motor Company"..

In my mind the Ducati 90* twin, and the BMW Boxer are as iconic as the HD "V twin"., yet they are often panned as being less. Why??

HD has built some timeless bikes through the years, but are any of their bikes really more "classic" then an old /5.??

I can see as to why the Jap bike companies get picked on, because they build near clones of the HD. But imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so why should we as riders, or they as manufacturers care. People buy what they like, what they can afford, and neither of those choices is mine to judge. I do think there is some substance to the argument that it's the rider who gives the bike it's soul.

It used to be that the HD riders respected the BMW riders, and often the Beemers were allowed into HD gatherings while the japanese bikes were told to park elsewhere and walk in (for real see the "rock run"), not so much anymore. It's a shame, people are people regardless of bike choice, We here should recognize that as our Rally's are filled with multiple brands.

I'll continue to ride my three Beemers, and I'll continue to wave at all bikes, oh and I'll continue to miss my 7 past HD bikes. This us and them shit is nonsense.
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Old 08-01-2014, 07:07 AM   #3927
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*wee text snip***

dare I ask though, where does Triumph, BMW and Ducati fit into this debate.

*coughGuzzisplutter*

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Old 08-01-2014, 07:10 AM   #3928
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*coughGuzzisplutter*

Goddam $%#*ing Guzzis.
Having owned eight or ten of them...... PITA bikes.
Yes, I did just pick up another one last week.
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Old 08-01-2014, 07:13 AM   #3929
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Interesting read, I am not sure I agree with some of his points though. Yes the Japanese have knocked off the V-Twin cruisers, no arguing that. But the concept that if you were not the original creator of a class of bikes then you can not build a cruiser is disingenuous. Competition in the market creates a better product for the consumer, without competition in the Cruiser space would the HD bikes be as good as they are today?
Good point.

Harley has come a long way since I started riding. My 1st cross country trips with my son we rarely saw a Harley out of town. Now I see more Harleys than anything else.
They now make good bikes and I think marketing an image rather than a product is a mistake. Promoting image (bike nights at bars/loud pipes) is bad for all of us as riders.
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Old 08-01-2014, 07:15 AM   #3930
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Originally Posted by Wdwrkr View Post
........
......~
It used to be that the HD riders respected the BMW riders, and often the Beemers were allowed into HD gatherings while the japanese bikes were told to park elsewhere and walk in (for real see the "rock run"), not so much anymore. It's a shame, people are people regardless of bike choice, We here should recognize that as our Rally's are filled with multiple brands.
The BMW owner demographic has changed. However, if you roll up on an old airhead, you will certainly be welcome.
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