ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-28-2014, 04:33 PM   #166
Human Ills
Useful Idiom
 
Human Ills's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: South (Dog help me) Bay
Oddometer: 22,897
I see it the same exact way steve. It is impossible to have a reasonable conversation in this environment. Good on you for seeing the rhetorical fallacies present.
Human Ills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 05:08 PM   #167
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
This is the thing that disappoints me most about this thread:

When you talk about braking in a curve, many assume you mean trail braking, so they assume you're advocating coming into a corner FAST and on the brakes HARD, then criticize the terrible suggestion you're not making (that's a strawman, no one has advocated speeding in and relying on braking at entry to adjust speed).

If you can get the conversation to actual braking (not trailing off brakes at entry), then they assume you mean SLAMMING on the brakes irresponsibly, inviting a crash, so they criticize your terrible thinking again (altho that's another strawman). Alternately, they may put the bike at extreme lean angles, high speed, or riding over banana peels... whatever it takes for their brain to maintain that the idea is outrageous.

If you talk about a technique that CAN BE or IS used at the track, it's assumed that means you're advocating riding the street as if it were a closed track at 99% of performance. Again, criticisms abound for something you're not talking about, but rather someone's hyperbolic misunderstanding (yet another strawman).

IMO, every time someone says (or thinks), "So, basically, you're saying...." what follows is a hyperbole or strawman that has little to do with what you've actually said.
I advocate teaching noobs that braking is a valuable skill to learn, but it has traction limitations. Some people don't agree with that.
...So what they're basically saying is they think we should remove the brakes from beginning rider's bike before letting them on the street. (See how stupid that is? - and yet that's what this thread is laden with).

To me it looks like "don't touch the brakes leaned" is so deeply ingrained in some that they can't even entertain a conversation about it without having all their mental bells and whistles going off. ...a symptom of the problem with MSF training IMO.
+1
Very well said Steve.
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 05:24 PM   #168
Organic Mechanic
Awesome sauce taster
 
Organic Mechanic's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: St Louis MO
Oddometer: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE GREAT ORICLE
Trail braking is a motorcycle riding and driving technique where the brakes are used beyond the entrance to a turn and are gradually released up to the point of apex.

In a broader scope, trailing off the braking pressure either while straight line braking or, as above, after turn in has begun, allows for a less abrupt and more accurate final corner entry speed adjustment. Some corner entries, such as decreasing radius turns, are more adapted to the leaned over trail braking technique. In turns where a quicker steering action is more applicable, trailing the brake while turning in is unnecessary.
hmmm....
Organic Mechanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 05:31 PM   #169
Organic Mechanic
Awesome sauce taster
 
Organic Mechanic's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: St Louis MO
Oddometer: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE GREAT ALL KNOWING ORICLE
In applying this technique, motorcycle riders approach turns applying front brakes to reduce speed. As they enter the turn, they slowly ease off the brakes, gradually decreasing or trailing off the brakes as motorcycle lean increases. This is done for several reasons.

First, it gives more traction because the downward force on the front tire is increased by load transfer. Second, as the brakes are applied and the weight shifts forward, the forks are compressed.[1] The compression of the forks changes the motorcycles steering geometry, decreasing stability in a way that makes the motorcycle more apt to lean and more quickly change direction. Third, decreasing speed decreases the motorcycle's cornering radius. Conversely, accelerating while turning increases the motorcycles cornering radius.

Fourth, trailing off the brakes while entering blind or tight corners allows the rider to slow if something unexpected blocks the rider's path. Because the motorcycle is already on the brakes and the front tire is getting additional traction from already slowing, the rider can slow even more with very little risk, depending on surface conditions. However, applying the brakes after the motorcycle is already leaned over can be exceedingly risky depending on surface conditions and lean angle.

Traditionally, trail braking is done exclusively with the front brake even though trailing the rear brake will effectively slow the motorcycle, also decreasing the turning radius. If the motorcycle is leaned over, forces from the front brake and the deceleration causes the motorcycle to yaw (lean), while use of the rear brake generates a torque that tends to align (straighten) and stabilize the motorcycle.[2]

The rider's ability to correctly choose his turn in, apex and exit points reduces or eliminates the need for prolonged trailing of the brakes into turns. This technique is commonly used when racing, but can enhance control and add more evasive options for street riders.

Risks[edit]
There is risk with trail braking because excessive use of the front brake can result in a loss of grip as the tire's adhesion is split between braking and cornering forces.[1] Effective trail braking requires finesse from the rider, which can be difficult to learn.[1]

Controversy[edit]
Guides such as the Motorcycle Safety Foundation Basic RiderCourse teach that the safest way for a beginning rider to approach a corner on a motorcycle is by performing all of the slowing before the entrance of the turn, discouraging the use of any brakes while the motorcycle is leaned over.[1][3] The argument against trail braking on the street, at least for beginners, is that the steep learning curve of trail braking makes it appropriate only for the race track. The benefit of learning trail braking to the street rider is that knowing and understanding how to slow while entering a corner gives a greater safety margin, particularly in blind, decreasing radius or downhill corners.

Freddie Spencer, founder of the now defunct Freddie Spencer's High Performance Riding School as well as Nick Ienatsch, author of the 2003 book Sport Riding Techniques and chief instructor of Yamaha Champions Riding School argue that trail braking should be used in nearly every corner as a means to help the motorcycle change direction, stating that trail braking gives the rider more control and significantly increases rider safety.[4][5]

Spencer and Ienatsch agree with the physics of angular acceleration and note that the slower any vehicle is going, the tighter the radius of the corner it can navigate.[4] This is seemingly opposed to Code's writing that, as soon as possible after initiating a turn, the rider should get on the gas smoothly and progressively throughout the turn.[6] Spencer points out that for every radius, motorcycle, and rider combination there is a maximum speed at which the turn can be navigated without exiting the road or suffering a low side crash. Code is saying that as long as this maximum speed is not exceeded, proper throttle control throughout the turn will result in higher corner exit speeds and faster lap times.
Organic Mechanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 05:35 PM   #170
Organic Mechanic
Awesome sauce taster
 
Organic Mechanic's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2013
Location: St Louis MO
Oddometer: 59
Cool2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Organic Mechanic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BUNCH OF A DUMB HICKS
References[edit]
^ Jump up to: a b c d Carrithers, Tim (October 2009). "Street Savvy - Motorcycle Trail Braking; Mastering The Art Of Post-Perpendicular Deceleration". Motorcyclist. Retrieved 2010-02-20.
Jump up ^ Cossalter, Vittore (2006). Motorcycle Dynamics, Second English Edition. Lulu. ISBN 978-1-4303-0861-4.
Jump up ^ Basic RiderCourse rider handbook (version 7.1). Motorcycle Safety Foundation. January 2008. p. 21. Retrieved 2009-08-12.
^ Jump up to: a b Ienatsch, Nick (2003). Sport Riding Techniques: How to Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety and Confidence on the Street and Track. David Bull. ISBN 1-893618-07-2.
Jump up ^ Parsons, Grant (April 2004). "Professor Freddie: Learning to ride from the Master of Fast". American Motorcyclist 58 (4) (American Motorcyclist Association). pp. 41–44. ISSN 0277-9358. Retrieved 2010-02-20.
Jump up ^ Code, Keith (1983). A Twist of the Wrist. Code Break. ISBN 0-9650450-1-3.
Organic Mechanic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 06:13 PM   #171
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
It's a good indicator of his level of expertise.
Others will see these purely negative personal comments as a good indicator of the originator's character. A person without the skills necessary to constructively and politely engage in the conversation.
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2014, 08:11 PM   #172
farmerstu
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Minnesota west central
Oddometer: 397
this thread may put some light on the op question.
Msf brc rcp omg wtf lol

it is an excellent conversation with several MSF instructors posting thier thought. after reading that entire thread is seems evident to me that many,if not most people taking the MSF course have all the can do do master the basic skills being taught. adding more is asking a lot for the time alloted.
farmerstu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 08:31 AM   #173
ZiaThunder
Go big or go home
 
ZiaThunder's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2012
Location: NM
Oddometer: 512
The new MSF BRC that is starting to roll out, no longer focuses on getting all your braking done while straight up and before you tip into the turn.

Now as a RiderCoach, I liked since it meant less people falling down in class. However, as a road racer, I know it's just wrong. It took me years to over come the MSF teachings and to get faster on the race track. (thank you, YCRS).

I have students that trail brake in class, if they are not a danger to themselves, I'll let it go and make sure that they are aware of what they are doing and how it can effect their traction. Now there are students who really have no business riding a MC, they are scary just trying to ride in a circle. The thought of them out on the street terrifies me. Some of them somehow manage to pass the tests even. These student I don't want they trying to trail brake. They need more time on a bike and then they need to do something like the YCRS. If they continue to ride.

That said; the current BRC should be enough to get someone started. It's not the best for everyone, and some people need to take it a few times to really get it. Hell, it's how I learned to ride. Took the class, bought a bike and rode 25K miles the first year. On the other hand I've had students who have taken the class 4x before passing. Even then they weren't comfortable with riding on the streets.

What it all comes down to is that motorcycles aren't really for everyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
this thread may put some light on the op question.
Msf brc rcp omg wtf lol

it is an excellent conversation with several MSF instructors posting thier thought. after reading that entire thread is seems evident to me that many,if not most people taking the MSF course have all the can do do master the basic skills being taught. adding more is asking a lot for the time alloted.
ZiaThunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 09:32 AM   #174
Rgconner
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2014
Oddometer: 632
The classes taken seem to be orientated to communiting/grocery getting maybe a little road trip, not pushing the bike. Practical riding skills.

This technique definite rates as advanced skill set, probably taught in a specialized class.
__________________
Bikes are like rocket science... except we try to avoid the coming back down part.
Rgconner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 10:34 AM   #175
LittleRedToyota
Yinzer
 
LittleRedToyota's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Oddometer: 2,232
i still don't get how people think the need to brake in corners (however you get it done...trail braking or otherwise) on the street is an advanced skill.

the street doesn't care if you are rossi or you are on your first ride ever. if something happens in a corner (kid runs out, animal runs out, car in front of you stops for no apparent reason, etc.), you are going to have to brake in a corner regardless of you experience level.

while i would agree that it is better to teach braking in a straight line first, i completely disagree that anyone who cannot brake while cornering is actually ready to ride on the street. many people do get away with it...but only because they are lucky enough to not have the need to brake in a corner arise.

for that reason, i think it is very good that the MSF is apparently (according to a post by a rider coach above) moving in that direction. the technique they taught in my MSF (ERC) course i took of first standing the bike up and then braking works OK on a parking lot course, but you may or may not have room to do it in a real world street corner.
__________________
2009 KTM 450 xc-w (plated)
2009 DRZ400s
LittleRedToyota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 10:40 AM   #176
daveinva
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Washington, D.C.
Oddometer: 548
Thankfully, SCIENCE will soon make everything in this thread obsolete!

http://rideapart.com/2014/07/braking...abs-pro-works/

daveinva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 11:02 AM   #177
Human Ills
Useful Idiom
 
Human Ills's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: South (Dog help me) Bay
Oddometer: 22,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveinva View Post
Thankfully, SCIENCE will soon make everything in this thread obsolete!

http://rideapart.com/2014/07/braking...abs-pro-works/

It's funny, but I could swear an inmate was wishing for this just a couple days ago.

"“The new ABS Pro still operates like any other ABS, by limiting brake pressure to avoid brake lock-up,” said Sergio. “ABS Pro further fine tunes the ABS response for a leaned over motorcycle, limiting initial pressure build up and smoothing out any abruptness in the braking maneuver.”"

A system which dampens rider input, if I read that correctly.
Human Ills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 03:33 PM   #178
Rgconner
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2014
Oddometer: 632
Yep...

"Crash by wire"
__________________
Bikes are like rocket science... except we try to avoid the coming back down part.
Rgconner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 03:47 PM   #179
steve68steve
Studly Adventurer
 
steve68steve's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Oddometer: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiaThunder View Post
The new MSF BRC that is starting to roll out, no longer focuses on getting all your braking done while straight up and before you tip into the turn.
Quote:
Now as a RiderCoach, I liked since it meant less people falling down in class. However, as a road racer, I know it's just wrong. It took me years to over come the MSF teachings ...
Wow. I wish you'd posted this on page 1 - it would have been a much better/different/shorter thread.

This takes the teeth out of the "counter arguments" presented in this thread.
__________________
Steve

'12 Glee
steve68steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 03:57 PM   #180
Human Ills
Useful Idiom
 
Human Ills's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: South (Dog help me) Bay
Oddometer: 22,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Wow. I wish you'd posted this on page 1 - it would have been a much better/different/shorter thread.

This takes the teeth out of the "counter arguments" presented in this thread.
I've not really observed the effect of introducing facts to a thread which you describe
Human Ills is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014