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Old 08-01-2014, 12:02 AM   #226
catweasel67
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You're guilty of your own accusations. See my responses in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Again: you fail to grasp the concept of logic.

Allow me to distill your "arguments" - I'm not re-reading this trainwreck, so forgive my errant memory:

1. The MSF teaches it, so it must be right (appeal to authority).
...but they're changing their teaching and even a rider coach has said this is an obstacle. This point was made and re-made to you and didn't refute it, only ignored it.
Here's what he actually said - you think your paraphrasing and the reality of what he said is the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiaThunder View Post
Now as a RiderCoach, I liked since it meant less people falling down in class. However, as a road racer, I know it's just wrong. It took me years to over come the MSF teachings and to get faster on the race track. (thank you, YCRS).

2. It's not needed on EVERY corner, therefor it's not needed to learn before riding street. (fallacy of composition - or maybe the inverse).
... this is so illogical on the face of it, no more needs to be said: "if you don't need it all of the time, you don't need it some of time."
Feel free to find anyone who said that at any time in this thread. You won't, because no one did.


3. It's dangerous - noobs will crash. (ok, an actual assertion for a change)
...but it's been pointed out that Hurt report has the #1 single vehicle crash running off the road, which is CAUSED by the MSF's teachings. That implies it's at least AS dangerous to not teach it than to teach it. You also never refuted this.
You're an idiot if you think the MSF is to blame at this point. Based on your responses to this point, I'm beginning to think you're just an idiot in general. Not obtuse, not obstructive, just an idiot.

4. But noobs don't have the skill to do an "advanced technique".
...If this logic holds, then they don't have the skill to stand it up to brake or lean more, either. You never refuted this.
Reductio ad absurdum. 100%. Another idiotic response. It refutes itself.

5. Braking in a turn is an "advanced technique".
... Is it? At legal speeds and leans angles, there is often a LOT of available traction not being used. This point has also been made several times here and not refuted. Many are doing it routinely with no issues. Could it be that the MSF has brainwashed people into thinking it's more dangerous than it is?
Once again - emergency braking to avoid an unforeseen hazard. How many times does that have to be said? You think a newb has the ability to not grab a handful of front brake in a panic situation? You think experience can be taught?

6. If you teach someone a technique that works in a race setting, they will automatically ride like maniacs with absolute disregard to safety. Teach them trail braking and they'll hit every corner at wreckless speed and on the brakes HARD.
...(straw man/ false dichotomy) This is a big mental block for many who think trail braking should be "left on the track." They can't imagine a sane person doing it at shallow lean angles and safe speeds.... or maybe, see #5.
Once again, we're talking about the ability to perform an emergency stop mid turn, not trail-braking.
I think that given a choice between "slow in, fast out" (aka get most, if not all of, your braking done before the turn) is a safer method to teach and practice than "emergency stops mid turn". One, the former, is preparatory, whilst the later is reactionary. You're arguing to teach newbs a reactionary braking method, I'm arguing to teach newbs a preparatory one.
Oh, and it's "reckless" unless you were going for some sort of pun, which seems unlikely.


Honestly, it looks like your idea of "debate" involves a lot of re-casting or outright ignoring counter-arguments, while employing minimal amounts of (specious) logic. A "gotcha" may feel like a "win" to you, but when you're smugly directing it at arguments people are NOT making, it falls flat. It's tiring.
If you don't see that you're doing that, you have a mental block. If you're doing it on purpose for the lulz, why are you being such a dickhead? Those are the only two possibilities I see.
You're cognitively limited. That's your problem, not mine.

OK, I'm really done. I don't know how to be make my thinking more plain or better understood. If you don't "get it," we just have a communication block between us. I am very logic-based. Maybe you are more belief/emotion based. If so, we will never be able to agree.

I agree. We'll never agree. Mainly because I think you're doing the same thing that I believe JohnCW keeps doing - You're not putting yourself in the shoes of someone who's never ridden before, or you've utterly forgotten what it's like to be a newb.

Take yourself back 5? 10? 20? years or more and try to remember what it was like when you couldn't walk around the bike without dropping it. When you had some serious issues coordinating your hands and feet. When doing a figure 8 or a U-turn was wobbly as hell and, rather critically, when you were grabby as hell with your right hand.

So, once more - I do not believe that newbs have the necessary experience to be safely taught mid-turn emergency braking.

I believe that trail-braking (that's the gradual easing off on the brakes until almost at the apex) is an intermediate to advanced racing technique and belongs, predominantly, on the race track. Trail-braking is about getting around the bend as quickly as possibly, whilst maximising traction. It has very little to do with safety - IMO.

[/QUOTE]

catweasel67 screwed with this post 08-01-2014 at 12:05 AM Reason: grammar nazi self.
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:02 PM   #227
Human Ills
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So I went for a ride which included a downhill section (several of them, lasting dozens of miles) so twisty that there were no straights.

Did I use my brakes anyway?
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:35 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Ills View Post
So I went for a ride which included a downhill section (several of them, lasting dozens of miles) so twisty that there were no straights.

Did I use my brakes anyway?
Well if you did you died. Didn't realize they had internet connections in heaven, good to know.
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:52 PM   #229
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Well if you did you died. Didn't realize they had internet connections in heaven, good to know.
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