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Old 08-27-2014, 10:55 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by pckopp View Post
Like the War on Drugs - which is actually the War on Some Drugs, this is the War on Some Tracks. Post and share any track you like except anything called TAT.
That is one, but there are many more like Hog Wild pointed out.

Like him, I have posted thousands of miles of my tracks on AdvRider and GPSXchange.com and they have been reposted on other sites like Dual Sport Maps. This is not a problem for the person who developed those tracks and put them in the public domain.

The other class of Tracks are those that were developed by someone for commercial purpose. Posting tracks that a promoter provided for a fee and he made it clear they are proprietary and only provided for one time use and not public domain is no different than stealing any other piece of intellectual property.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:15 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Countdown View Post
That is one, but there are many more like Hog Wild pointed out.

Like him, I have posted thousands of miles of my tracks on AdvRider and GPSXchange.com and they have been reposted on other sites like Dual Sport Maps. This is not a problem for the person who developed those tracks and put them in the public domain.

The other class of Tracks are those that were developed by someone for commercial purpose. Posting tracks that a promoter provided for a fee and he made it clear they are proprietary and only provided for one time use and not public domain is no different than stealing any other piece of intellectual property.
i'm sorry man, but unless you're looking up the original explorer/surveyor that plotted that road you take to work, or the path you tracked, and paying his/her remaining family for the privilige, this is bogus.

you go, you ride, you track. it's YOUR TRACK, do to with whatever you like. if you are fancy enough a marketer to actually SELL IT, more power to ya, i'm all for making a buck or three. expecting everyone that ever finds one of your tracks, goes and explores it, to compensate you (or me, or 'them') is bogus also.

anyway, this SAM guy makes nice tracks. good for him. (no sarcasm at all). i think it's pretty cool to get paid for doing what you love.
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:32 PM   #213
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i'm sorry man, but unless you're looking up the original explorer/surveyor that plotted that road you take to work, or the path you tracked, and paying his/her remaining family for the privilige, this is bogus.

you go, you ride, you track. it's YOUR TRACK, do to with whatever you like. if you are fancy enough a marketer to actually SELL IT, more power to ya, i'm all for making a buck or three.
1) That would be true if some other person actually pioneered that 2,500 mile route but no one did. Sam did, I did, or Hog Wild did ours first. Just like patients, all the element existed but the inventor was first to put them all together.

2) Yes that is true and we all love it, but not the issue.

This thread is about people buying the right to use a track once then posting it on the internet. What made this country better than any other in the world is that it was based on your reward was for your hard work. The Pilgrims tried sharing the benefit of other's work and it failed in one year and they reverted to classic reap your own rewards. Sadly about 45% of us now want everything without doing any work to get it.

Theft of someone else's work is theft with no way to rationalize it away except in the minds of thieves.

If I were Sam I would require a standard business non-disclosure agreement with each sale so if someone posted it on the internet he could sue for financial loss.
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:46 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Countdown View Post
1) That would be true if some other person actually pioneered that 2,500 mile route but no one did. Sam did, I did, or Hog Wild did ours first. Just like patients, all the element existed but the inventor was first to put them all together.

2) Yes that is true and we all love it, but not the issue.

This thread is about people buying the right to use a track once then posting it on the internet. What made this country better than any other in the world is that it was based on your reward was for your hard work. The Pilgrims tried sharing the benefit of other's work and it failed in one year and they reverted to classic reap your own rewards. Sadly about 45% of us now want everything without doing any work to get it.

Theft of someone else's work is theft with no way to rationalize it away except in the minds of thieves.

If I were Sam I would require a standard business non-disclosure agreement with each sale so if someone posted it on the internet he could sue for financial loss.
NO! It's a thread about someone buying Sam's tracks and asking for help figuring out how to use them.
Some Sam lovers and Kevin haters have turned it into a who can share, who can sell thread.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:40 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Countdown View Post
The other class of Tracks are those that were developed by someone for commercial purpose. Posting tracks that a promoter provided for a fee and he made it clear they are proprietary and only provided for one time use and not public domain is no different than stealing any other piece of intellectual property.
Every book publisher in the world wishes that were true!

In Sam's case he published his work. People bought it. And just like a book, when they are done they can pass it along to their friends. How many folks have ever done the TAT more than once? Ever bought a paperback that both you and your wife read? It is not out of the realm of possibility that Sams published work could end up in a library with millions of other published works, available to check out for a month at a time.

You OTOH haven't published your tracks. So they will stay a secret - until they aren't. I don't see how you can keep them a secret for long. You sure no one who's ever taken your trip hasn't had a second gps or smartphone somewhere? How do you know someone isn't leading their friends on your route this minute? Even if you knew, what are your options? There are a number of ways between Gerlach and the Oregon border. How different does the track have to be before it isn't yours? If they publish their adventure, including the tracks and call it My Great North American Adventure, will you ever know? I suspect there are a lot more adventure riders that don't hang out here than do.

In the TAT case, even years ago a simple google search would turn up most of the info. If gpskevin had labeled his web pages something like Kevin's Coast to Coast Adventure we may never have this discussion.

Too much typing and not enough gravel roads make Phil a grump. Time to ride.
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:46 PM   #216
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Every book publisher in the world wishes that were true!
If you were to re-type each chapter from a book, turn that into a PDF file, and post it on the internet, you would be in violation of the law. That's a derived copy. Even if you make a bunch of typo mistakes or change a few words that result in your "copy" being somewhat different, it's still a derived copy that you don't own the rights to. All the words (roads) in the dictionary are free for everyone to use. But put them in the same order that an original book author did, and publish that for others to read for free, then you're in the wrong.

Or how about taking a video recorder into a movie theater, making a video copy of the movie, then posting that on the internet? If you do that, you're in the wrong. If you knowingly view such a copy, you're stealing from the original creators.

Clearly Sam would rather be out riding that chasing down every scumbag thief, so it's easy to get away with it. But just because you can get away with it does not make it morally ok. Clearly the tracks, maps, or roll charts and the "TAT experience" are worth something to all those who ride TAT, otherwise they would be out doing some OTHER ride. And since Sam asks to be paid for his hard work, why would anyone feel it's ok to copy it and/or skip out on paying?

Like Countdown said, some people want everything for free, or want someone else to pay. They have no respect for the hard work of others. That's why I protect my most precious creations so strongly, and significantly limit who gets "in". It hurts other riders because they will never have the opportunity to experience some of the most unique rides around. Lots of good honest people miss out because there are so many scumbags around.
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:26 PM   #217
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If you were to re-type each chapter from a book, turn that into a PDF file, and post it on the internet, you would be in violation of the law. That's a derived copy. Even if you make a bunch of typo mistakes or change a few words that result in your "copy" being somewhat different, it's still a derived copy that you don't own the rights to. All the words (roads) in the dictionary are free for everyone to use. But put them in the same order that an original book author did, and publish that for others to read for free, then you're in the wrong.

Or how about taking a video recorder into a movie theater, making a video copy of the movie, then posting that on the internet? If you do that, you're in the wrong. If you knowingly view such a copy, you're stealing from the original creators.
None of that has anything to do with this discussion, especially my reference to books. Of course you can't legally make a copy of a book or movie and sell it. I didn't say that. Your "experience" reading the book or watching the movie is what you paid for. I said when you were done reading the book you are perfectly within your rights to give it to a friend. And when you are finished watching the movie you are perfectly able to talk about the characters, the plot, the ending, the music or discuss the great roads they drove along. And to go ride them yourself.

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Clearly Sam would rather be out riding that chasing down every scumbag thief, so it's easy to get away with it. But just because you can get away with it does not make it morally ok. Clearly the tracks, maps, or roll charts and the "TAT experience" are worth something to all those who ride TAT, otherwise they would be out doing some OTHER ride. And since Sam asks to be paid for his hard work, why would anyone feel it's ok to copy it and/or skip out on paying?
For the same reason it is perfectly legal to share a book. You bought the book, you own the book (not the story, the physical book) so you can pass it on. Same is true of any published work, which is what Sam has. You can't make copies of his maps or his roll charts, but the info contained on them is public. That's what published means. As Countdown mentions, it is how we grow the sum total of our knowledge. Someone figures something out, writes a book, someone else reads that and adds the knowledge to their skills and makes something better, And writes a book. On and on.

It isn't at all clear to me that gpskevin "stole" anything. His tracks are not identical to Sam's. If they were, the original poster wouldn't have asked for help. As far as I know gpskevin actually rode across the country. And shared his tracks. Is Sam pursuing any legal remedies? I have no idea but I would be surprised if he was, or could.

I suspect most folks would think of a set of tracks as a set of instructions, which are not protected under copyright. Mrs Fields makes a fine income selling chocolate chip cookies but she has no control over chocolate chip cookie recipies. There are thousands of them out there. Probably 100 of them in my house. Made some for grandkids last week.

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Like Countdown said, some people want everything for free, or want someone else to pay.
Just like books. My neighbor gave me the one I'm reading now. I've loaned him a dvd or two. I'm sure the publisher would like us to each buy one but no one broke any laws. Or moral codes. None of that changes just because you like Sam and Jerry and are in the same business as they are.

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They have no respect for the hard work of others. That's why I protect my most precious creations so strongly, and significantly limit who gets "in". It hurts other riders because they will never have the opportunity to experience some of the most unique rides around. Lots of good honest people miss out because there are so many scumbags around.
If you published your tracks wouldn't even more people "have the opportunity to experience some the most unique rides around." I think what you really mean is more people would have the opportunity to pay you to experience those rides. Fine with me, but not what you said. Do you really think no one but you and your customers go where you go? How do you know some of your sets of directions isn't already being passed around? It sort of sounds like the real value of your products is that they are secret - so far. Coke's recipe is still secret but Pepsi sells plenty, as well.

Trying to keep them secret is the correct way, IMO. As soon as you publish the info isn't yours anymore. But if someone does happen to go the same way you do and share it, you have no recourse. You didn't publish it so no creative expression so you have no copyright, thus no way to protect anything. And if you did do all that and didn't sue everyone who shared them you would lose the ownership. Part of the requirements. If Sam chooses not so take gpskevin to court he will eventually lose control of the information. (Which I suspect has already happened.)

I've taken lots of guided tours while on vacation. I doubt any of the tour companies have tried to copyright the routes the bus takes from one place to another. What they have of value is the information they provide along the way. Pay your $20, get a set of headphones and ride along. You could follow the bus in your car but you wouldn't know which archduke got killed in which castle. :) But if what the tour company was selling was the route and the view along the way, then following along in your own car would work just fine. Which kind of sounds like your business. And probably why the tour companies don't do it.

I'm not sure "keeping a secret" in the internet age is really a sound business model.

I also don't think calling people names just because they happen to do things differently than you would like them to is really the advrider we want. I think there is enough of that in the world without getting it here.

TIme to go make some tracks - which may or may not be like anyone else's.
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:36 PM   #218
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So many excuses, so little respect for the works of others.

Why is it so hard to understand that the right thing to do is either pay Sam what he asks, or skip TAT and ride something else. As Sam says, sharing TAT tracks hurts further development.
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:08 PM   #219
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NO! It's a thread about someone buying Sam's tracks and asking for help figuring out how to use them.
Some Sam lovers and Kevin haters have turned it into a who can share, who can sell thread.
True but he got his question answered then this came up:

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I came across the gpskevin website while Google'ing tat, cobdabbqbr, and a few other trail/ride names mentioned here on advrider. this is the first negativity mentioned I've seen. people have remailed me, and I them, tracks we have ridden since I started playing with GPS records. is the negative vibe described somewhere, so I can read it first hand?
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:18 PM   #220
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[QUOTE=pckopp;24944841] In Sam's case he published his work. People bought it. And just like a book, when they are done they can pass it along to their friends. Ever bought a paperback that both you and your wife read? It is not out of the realm of possibility that Sams published work could end up in a library with millions of other published works, available to check out for a month at a time.[QUOTE]

All true except only one person can read a book at one time, much different than posting an electronic version of the book in the Internet so thousands of people can read it at one time.

Also much different if Sam sold it with the agreement that it was for one time use only by the purchaser. Unless you know for sure something is in the public domain it should not be reproduced in any form without the expressed permission of the National Football League. Sound familiar?
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:50 PM   #221
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All true except only one person can read a book at one time, much different than posting an electronic version of the book in the Internet so thousands of people can read it at one time.
Exactly right and just what I said in my post above.

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Also much different if Sam sold it with the agreement that it was for one time use only by the purchaser.
Not. You can't limit someone's property rights just because you don't like what they might do with them. Completely unenforceable. Can you imagine Barnes & Noble only selling you a book if you agreed to destroy it after you read it?

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Unless you know for sure something is in the public domain it should not be reproduced in any form without the expressed permission of the National Football League. Sound familiar?
NFL games are performances and they are copyrighted. No, you shouldn't record the game and put it on YouTube. But you can talk about the game in as much detail and depth as you wish with whomever you wish. You can even teach your Pop Warner team the same plays and run them on Friday afternoon.

Just like the folks who bought Sam's route instructions. When they are done with them they have every right to pass them on as they see fit. No, not scanning all the materials and putting them on the net.

I'm done here, this is silly.
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Old 08-28-2014, 07:27 AM   #222
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You can't limit someone's property rights just because you don't like what they might do with them. Completely unenforceable.
Sure you can. Garmin does with every current map they sell. You're not allowed to post their maps or derived copies of their maps on the internet. And you're not allowed to load their maps onto an unlimited number of GPS units. A Garmin map is basically a mega elaborate set of tracks. I don't think Garmin would come after you if you posted a couple of city blocks from their map, but if you publish a significant portion of the total map data, you're clearly in the wrong. Publishing or using a significant portion of TAT without permission is wrong too. Sam may not be able to enforce this very well, but that doesn't make it ok. Is that the attitude, "if I can get away with it, then it's ok"? Is hurting Sam ok?

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Can you imagine Barnes & Noble only selling you a book if you agreed to destroy it after you read it?
That's exactly what I do, and so far it's working great. This is what my roadbooks have at the very beginning:

Terms of Use:
As a condition of accepting this roadbook and corresponding map, user agrees to the following: Roadbook and map are provided as short-term rentals only. They are not for sale, and remain the property of Scott Whitney. Copying or other reproduction is strictly prohibited. User agrees to not record or allow others following along to record any GPS tracks while following the roadbook. A GPS track recorded while following the roadbook is considered a derived copy of the roadbook, and is therefore prohibited. The roadbook and map are for one-time rental use only, by one individual per paper copy, and must be returned or destroyed immediately after first use. Distribution, sharing, or publication of roadbook, map, or derived GPS tracks via email, internet, or other means is prohibited. Copyright 2014
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:06 AM   #223
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Sure you can. Garmin does with every current map they sell. You're not allowed to post their maps or derived copies of their maps on the internet. And you're not allowed to load their maps onto an unlimited number of GPS units. A Garmin map is basically a mega elaborate set of tracks. I don't think Garmin would come after you if you posted a couple of city blocks from their map, but if you publish a significant portion of the total map data, you're clearly in the wrong. Publishing or using a significant portion of TAT without permission is wrong too. Sam may not be able to enforce this very well, but that doesn't make it ok. Is that the attitude, "if I can get away with it, then it's ok"? Is hurting Sam ok?

That's exactly what I do, and so far it's working great. This is what my roadbooks have at the very beginning:

Terms of Use:
As a condition of accepting this roadbook and corresponding map, user agrees to the following: Roadbook and map are provided as short-term rentals only. They are not for sale, and remain the property of Scott Whitney. Copying or other reproduction is strictly prohibited. User agrees to not record or allow others following along to record any GPS tracks while following the roadbook. A GPS track recorded while following the roadbook is considered a derived copy of the roadbook, and is therefore prohibited. The roadbook and map are for one-time rental use only, by one individual per paper copy, and must be returned or destroyed immediately after first use. Distribution, sharing, or publication of roadbook, map, or derived GPS tracks via email, internet, or other means is prohibited. Copyright 2014
This agreement is only valid if the customer knowingly allows someone riding along to record the track. That would have to be proven in a court of law. The person recording the track has signed no agreement with you. He may not even be aware of the agreement the customer has accepted.

Why is there used book stores? Would a used TAT store be illegal? I see both sides of the discussion.

Did Sam offer tracks before the GPS tracks became available from other sources or in response to them?
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:17 AM   #224
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Why is there used book stores? Would a used TAT store be illegal? I see both sides of the discussion.

Did Sam offer tracks before the GPS tracks became available from other sources or in response to them?
"If you don't like the question, answer one you do."

If I have learned anything in this thread it is that these track providers are consumate politicians. They never answer the questions you ask.
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:03 AM   #225
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Sam has had a good run and will continue to do so. The problem is the motorcycle community enjoys riding an sharing that enjoyment with others. Most of us are willing to share what we enjoy with others freely. There are a few that have chosen to make sharing the fun a business. That's fine and I have no problem with that. But as a business it is there responsibility to protect it. It appears the only way this can be done is by name calling and promoting the idea if you don't pay them you are not a good person. This works to degree and will assure them of future business. Which is also fine.

When you purchase the routes/tracks you have no assurance that the route can be completed as purchased. It is up to you to reroute. There may be changes that are unforseen by the provider. So what are you paying for? For a route that can not be ridden? How much of a route that can not be followed is required for a refund? There is no reasonable expectation that the route can be completed as purchased. When I buy a product there is a reasonable expectation that I get what I pay for. With this you are paying handsomely for a maybe. When a fellow rider shares a route/track there is no expectation other than to give it a try.

But adventurers we don't seem to care. It is part of the adventure. This is the way it is. It should be different when you are paying for it.
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