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Old 02-22-2007, 07:23 PM   #16
pinecone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden
Fortunately it doesn't seem to have infected the 12GS, yet!
Hush up! Don't jinx it for us R12GS owners.
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Old 02-22-2007, 07:50 PM   #17
JimVonBaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce
My '04 1200GS did the exact same thing at 18,000kms. BMW replaced the clutch and tranny under warranty. (3yr unlimited mileage) I experienced hard shifting and lots of neutrals before the re-build. Worked great with a new tranny and clutch. Did a 10,000km ride to Baja and back, then sold it.
And you are the one I was talking about!

Jim

PS Fluke or not? Only time will tell.
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Old 02-22-2007, 08:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieJ
Bounty Hunter, should the area of the slave cylinder be dry, or is there some oil, or fluid normally present when you remove it?
This is somewhat open for debate. I have seen both dry and wet with no failure. But every failed one that I have seen has had dark brown, burnt looking fluid all over the back of the slave cylinder despite the fluid being clean in the master and in the entire hose.
One note regarding splines... I'm told by those in the know regarding driveshaft splines in trucks, etc. that several small, shallow teeth are much stronger than larger, deeper teeth. Looking at an airhead input shaft you will see several little razor sharp teeth but the Oilheads have fewer and deeper teeth which goes against all logic as the Oilhead has nearly double the horsepower of an Airhead. As I have previously posted, I am having some metallurgy testing done to the failed shafts that I have here along with a couple clutch discs and an equal number of new components. Hopefully I can get them to the lab next week. I will post results when I have them.
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Old 02-22-2007, 09:19 PM   #19
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Your results will be interesting.

I've watched this spline issue over the years (for oilheads) and something is clearly wrong with a few bikes. I know there are lubricant failure camps, alignment failure camps, metallurgical failure camps,
and camps of people who think it is all three. I wish I had a camp but the data is so spotty, I don't know what to think. I find it really interesting that some now believe spline failure correlates with clutch fluid color.

The only puesdo trend I've seen is this...For the people who have spline failure, that failure happens generally between 10k-35k miles.
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Old 02-23-2007, 03:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER
No warning what so ever!
Actually, with the bike neutral and with everything warmed up, you can hear a slight "chatter" if it's badly worn.

But it's very similier to the noise that lots of BM's make anyway. But if yours never made any noise, or you can now hear a slightly different noise, then it could be a sign.

BUT, be careful, because it's very easy to get paraniod over this type of noise, especially if you've a long trip coming up.
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Old 02-23-2007, 03:42 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER
This is somewhat open for debate. I have seen both dry and wet with no failure. But every failed one that I have seen has had dark brown, burnt looking fluid all over the back of the slave cylinder despite the fluid being clean in the master and in the entire hose.
One note regarding splines...


I'm told by those in the know regarding driveshaft splines in trucks, etc. that several small, shallow teeth are much stronger than larger, deeper teeth.
Don't get tunnel vision on the fluid colour - I've seen plenty of bikes with the fluid just as you've described, and they've had no failure.
Are you only looking at the bikes that have failed to assess the colour of the fluid and possibly jumping to a conclusion ?, or looking at all bikes fluid, if failed or not.

The spline size has nothing to do with strength, more smaller teeth equals more surface area for contact, than fewer large teeth.
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:35 AM   #22
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I think It really is an alignment issue from the factrory, not a lube the spline issue. If your oil head does not have this problem, chances are you won't and it will run for countless miles and never spin the clutch shaft; two of my oil heads were like that. If your oil head is like my third one, it will spin those shafts on a regular schedule; mine did between 10k-15k miles like clock work, nothing stopped it.
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Old 02-23-2007, 07:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe
Don't get tunnel vision on the fluid colour - I've seen plenty of bikes with the fluid just as you've described, and they've had no failure.
Are you only looking at the bikes that have failed to assess the colour of the fluid and possibly jumping to a conclusion ?, or looking at all bikes fluid, if failed or not.

The spline size has nothing to do with strength, more smaller teeth equals more surface area for contact, than fewer large teeth.
No tunnel vision! I have had a few apart...both failed units and good units. The failed ones always have shitty fluid at the back side of the slave where the good units are dry or, with 2 examples, wet but clean (leaking slave seal?). I'm not sure what relationship this has with the spline failures as there are never any signs of clutch slippage or engagement issues. I really don't like the fact that the input shaft doesn't go thru the entire splined hub of the clutch. Why not??? This doesn't make sense to me as this arrangement is only utilizing 3/4's of the clutches splines so would appear to be weak from the start. I'm having the metallurgy tests done to rule that theory out and narrow the options down a bit.
As for noise prior to failure...I have not had that experience yet. The RT w/ 40K miles on it hadn't failed completely yet but the splines were warped really bad. I suspect it would have failed within a thousand miles or less. This bike was quiet with no rattle or shifting/clutch actuation difficulties.
Hopefully the cause is the input shaft being too short. I'm sure a longer shaft could be made which would utilize the entire splined surface of the clutch hub but who knows???
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:12 PM   #24
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http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/htm...x_splines.html

You guys might want to take a look at this page which talks about similar failures in Volvo marine engines. The photos look almost the same as the ones from the GS. They say the root cause is excessive cyclic loading (a.k.a. torsional vibration) and they have a fix for it in the form of an intermediate drive cushion plate.

I didn't find the 75% engagement argument at all convincing, myself. What's the magical value of 22mm of engagement, or 100% of the spline length? Maybe 17mm is all you need. What if the spline was 220mm long, would 22mm no longer be plenty, and we'd be talking about a mere 10% engagement?

And it's pretty apparent that Volvo doesn't use 100% engagement either.

(edit) Two of the failed Volvo splines don't seem to have a tapered wear, and two have small amounts. I do buy Rad's argument about a misalignment at the GS spline. BTW that taper in the GS's wear pattern is 3 degrees according to my protractor.
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:20 PM   #25
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I've seen a 12GS at my dealer apart for this. Tech said there wasn't any lube at all on the spines when he took it apart...and it was the 2nt one he had seen...this was over a year ago. He blamed it on cheap Eastern Germans doing the assembly forgetting spline lube... Sounds reasonable.

Carolina BMW btw, head master tech there...
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:24 PM   #26
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Notice though, that the splines of the "plate" in the Volvo thread are 100% destroyed meaning that the shaft is going ALL THE WAY thru the plate. The BMW set up does NOT. You are only using 75% of the splines in the 6 speed BMW set up. That may be the problem.
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:26 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmwoodys
I've seen a 12GS at my dealer apart for this. Tech said there wasn't any lube at all on the spines when he took it apart...and it was the 2nt one he had seen...this was over a year ago. He blamed it on cheap Eastern Germans doing the assembly forgetting spline lube... Sounds reasonable.

Carolina BMW btw, head master tech there...
That was my original thought but I have since found failures where lubricant was evident. The saga continues....Unfortunately....
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:43 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER
Notice though, that the splines of the "plate" in the Volvo thread are 100% destroyed meaning that the shaft is going ALL THE WAY thru the plate. The BMW set up does NOT. You are only using 75% of the splines in the 6 speed BMW set up. That may be the problem.
My bad, I thought you were talking about the male part.

OK, so 75% engagement is the problem in BMW's case; but the Volvo plates failed even with 100% engagement. I'm not following the argument.

But I'm not trying to pound on you even if it sounds like it. I'm looking forward to hearing the results of the metallurgy tests you're having done.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyA
My bad, I thought you were talking about the male part.

OK, so 75% engagement is the problem in BMW's case; but the Volvo plates failed even with 100% engagement. I'm not following the argument.

But I'm not trying to pound on you even if it sounds like it. I'm looking forward to hearing the results of the metallurgy tests you're having done.
What is the horsepower of the affected Volvo marine issue though? Probably well over 200HP? And don't worry about pounding on me...I have the typical hard shell German squash
I do not understand why all the other BMW models w/ a dry clutch have 100% engagement of the input to clutch splines (Airheads/2&4V K's/5spd.R's) but the 6 speeds (Pre Hexhead 1200 - clarification for JvB - no Flame-Thrower Jim ) do not. Design flaw??? Does Das Fuktery know sumthin' or did they F'up like they sometimes do??? You can't get a straight answer from BMWNA or AG and they seem to enjoy the denial process (common in Europe now w/ everything) and letting their customers be their R&D dept.
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOUNTY HUNTER
No warning what so ever!
So one minutet your riding along, next the motor revs up and your on the side of the road... please give the circumstance if you would.
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