Ask Woody About Your Wheels

[JV]

Woody,
All packed and shipped out today UPS. SS may not be a bad idea on the spokes and nipples. We'll talk when you get a look at what I got. Also I'm not too fond of the gold D.I.D. rim but it's what I got. May paint it or something. Thanks, JV

[woody's wheel works]

Originally Posted by JV

Woody,
All packed and shipped out today UPS. SS may not be a bad idea on the spokes and nipples. We'll talk when you get a look at what I got. Also I'm not too fond of the gold D.I.D. rim but it's what I got. May paint it or something. Thanks, JV

FYI,,,we can strip and re clear anodize them,,,,tis the best way,,,possibly swap ya for rims that match the color you wanted,,,we'll make it work for you



woody

[wrysingfeenix]

Woody...ballpark price to have you lace a 17" BMW front rim on my '99 R1100GS hub?

[woody's wheel works]

Originally Posted by wrysingfeenix

Woody...ballpark price to have you lace a 17" BMW front rim on my '99 R1100GS hub?

i have numerous 3.5x17 rims new and slightly used from the HP-2 SuMo kits,,they would need my Monzter spoke kit,,,so circa $400 would get you a Superlaced wheel,,it would require a tube unless we sealed it for tubeless,,,

FYI,,,this was BMWs quick n dirty solution for their HP-2 streetfighter crowd

BTW,,,i assume you want sort of a motard type look and effect,,,,the optimal rim sizes for thes tires is 3.5x17,,,,and unfortunately BMW didnt make a x-lace tubeless rim in that size,,,several folks have had me lace up the 2.5x17 x-lace/tubeless rim that is used on the rear of the R100 GS/PD bikes..that limits the trire selection,,,,

another solution,,,would be to take the rear 4.0x17 x-lace/tubeless rim ,,,cut it apart /machine 1/2" off and reweld to get you a 3.5x17,,that too has been done before and adds another bunch of $$$

[JayBo1]

Hiya Woody.
I'm hoping you can provide me with a little advice. I have discovered that the drill pattern for my 2005 KTM 640 Adventure is different from my 2006 450 EXC.

I mail ordered an Excel 21"x1.6" rim for the 640 but I couldn't lace it. I finally realised the direction of the holes does not match what's required by the standard 640 hub. I took the new rim and compared it to my 450 and it is the same.

Both rims (the existing BEHR 640 rim and the new Excel rim) have a sequence of four spokes. How do you describe the drill patterns for rims?

My best amateur effort would be to talk of the first pair of holes facing "backwards" and the second pair facing "forwards". The first hole of the first pair face one side and the second hole faces the other side. The second pair repeat the first so that the "side" being faced by each spoke hole is opposite to the adjacent holes.

So the problem I have is that the sequence starts by facing the incorrect "side". Turning the hub or the rim around makes no difference. Can you confirm that it sounds like I have been supplied with an incorrectly drilled rim for my 640 application? It seems to me they have just sent a standard drill pattern KTM EXC front rim and that my 640 should be different.

By the way, I had no problems lacing the BEHR back to the hub and I have previosuly laced up Excel rims to standard hubs on previous dirtbikes (Kawasaki's). I enjoy the challenge and have had no problems with previous wheels I have laced up.

I will really appreciate your advice.
Cheers
John

[woody's wheel works]

Originally Posted by JayBo1

Hiya Woody.
I'm hoping you can provide me with a little advice. I have discovered that the drill pattern for my 2005 KTM 640 Adventure is different from my 2006 450 EXC.

I mail ordered an Excel 21"x1.6" rim for the 640 but I couldn't lace it. I finally realised the direction of the holes does not match what's required by the standard 640 hub. I took the new rim and compared it to my 450 and it is the same.

Both rims (the existing BEHR 640 rim and the new Excel rim) have a sequence of four spokes. How do you describe the drill patterns for rims?

My best amateur effort would be to talk of the first pair of holes facing "backwards" and the second pair facing "forwards". The first hole of the first pair face one side and the second hole faces the other side. The second pair repeat the first so that the "side" being faced by each spoke hole is opposite to the adjacent holes.

So the problem I have is that the sequence starts by facing the incorrect "side". Turning the hub or the rim around makes no difference. Can you confirm that it sounds like I have been supplied with an incorrectly drilled rim for my 640 application? It seems to me they have just sent a standard drill pattern KTM EXC front rim and that my 640 should be different.

By the way, I had no problems lacing the BEHR back to the hub and I have previosuly laced up Excel rims to standard hubs on previous dirtbikes (Kawasaki's). I enjoy the challenge and have had no problems with previous wheels I have laced up.

I will really appreciate your advice.
Cheers
John

FYI....this problem is really only a PROBLEM on wheels that have hubs using nails,,ie straight spokes,,,these hubs in essence determine the indexing/sequencing of the holes drilled in your rim,,,

there are two basic patterns used today #1 is what we call the jap ,,,#2 is the european pattern,,,when you lay the wheel on a table ,,,look at the upper row of spokes closest to you,,,you will notice an inverted V which i call the tepee,,,,when you look in the tepee you'll see a spoke on the lower dimples pointing either left or right,,,,if it points left= jap pattern/indexing,,,

BWOE,, This picture is of the KTM 450 EXC front wheel.
The four 'Blue' spokes make up the sides of the two 'Tepees'. Within each of the 'Tepees' is a spoke heading to the LEFT. This gives me a "Jap" pattern index for the front wheel of my 450 EXC.
[IMG] and

when it points toward the right you have the euro drill pattern,,,,
BWOE,, The following picture is of the KTM 640 Adventure front wheel.
The four 'Blue' spokes make up the sides of the two 'Tepees'. Within each of the 'Tepees' is a spoke heading to the RIGHT. This gives me a "Euro" pattern index for the front wheel of my 640 Adventure.
[IMG]

OK,,,now we can tell what rim indexing you have

Rx...if you have the wrong indexed rim,,,you have several choices,,,

1=get the correct rim for your hub

2= add or subtract one cross on one side...adding a cross requires longer spokes and vice versa for subtracting a cross.... both of these will require redrilling and contersinking the holes on that side of the rim accordingly,,in your case i would add a cross and i would do that on the disc side of the rim,,it will actually increase the strength

3=have someone like me or Buchananas redrill and figure out the lengths,,and provide the correct lenth spokes ,,,although i'm sure you have that ability sounds like,,,i've done half adozen in the past year for our ADV riders in this pickle..DO NOT con yourself into just getting the right spokes without correcting the hole angles and countersinking,,,this would lead to premature wheel failure,,,cuz the spokes tend to loosen/break where they bend at the nipple,,,

4=if we do the wheels we sometimes trade out for the right rim plus the $20 cost of the redrill/countersinking operation and whatever disparity in rim value

5=for the folks that have traditional flanged hubs,,the Rx is real easy...just flip the spokes on one side of the hub in the opposite direction,,,,Voila the spokes will go the proper dimple hole

bonus tip: while you are looking at all this i'll clue you in on the optimal location for drilling valve stem and rim-lock holes,,,when you look straight down you'll notice next to the ''teepee" is a "V''/valley,,,your valve stem and rim-lock holes should be in the 'V' /valley for easier access,,,like in the picture below,,,

[/IMG]

BWOE,,traditionally we drill the valve stem hole opposite the point where the rim is welded together,,,under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you want to drill the hole in the welded area,,,this spot has enough problems trying to stay stuck together,,tis the weakest spot on a rim!!!!

the extra hole for a rim-lock is usually located in the valley next to the valve stem valley,, because it makes taking the tire on n off a snap,,,

HINT ya start spooning off the tire to the left n right of the rim lock,,,putting the tire back on start opposite of the rim-lock/valve stem,,,

FYI,,,some folks drill the rim-lock hole as close to opposite of the valve stem as pictured above,,their rational is of counteracting the weight of the valve stem

Should you need a second rim rock ,,,this hole is usually located in the valley directly across from the first rim-lock hole/valley,,,this helps balance ie counter balance the weight of the first rim-lock,,,,
hope this helps ya..woody

PS,,,15 Jan'08,,,i just used all of JaBo1's pics and hard work and integrated it into my up-graded explanations,,,what team-work

[JayBo1]

Thanks for the extensive reply Woody.
So, if I have understood it correctly, it seems my 640 Adventure has Euro pattern while the 450 EXC (and notably my new rim that was bought for the 640) has Jap pattern. I might add some photo's to this thread with circles around the "V" and the "Tepee" as I have understood them and to show what I have understood of the "spoke on the lower dimple" that faces left on the 450 and right on the 640.

[IMG][/IMG]
This photo is from the 640 and the same "spoke on lower dimple" on the 450 faces left. Does this sound correct?

Of the proposed solutions you have presented, I think the best would be "1=get the correct rim for your hub." To do this I could either send the rim back and ask for the correct replacement (means finding suitable packaging, arranging courier, etc) or order a matching rim (18"x2.5" black with yellow "double flag" text) for the 450 and order a correct rim for the 640 (21"x1.6" black with yellow "double flag" text). If you are interested in providing a quote for the two rims including USPS to Perth Australia, please PM me.
Cheers again
JayBo

[woody's wheel works]

Originally Posted by JayBo1

Thanks for the extensive reply Woody.
So, if I have understood it correctly, it seems my 640 Adventure has Euro pattern while the 450 EXC (and notably my new rim that was bought for the 640) has Jap pattern. I might add some photo's to this thread with circles around the "V" and the "Tepee" as I have understood them and to show what I have understood of the "spoke on the lower dimple" that faces left on the 450 and right on the 640.

[IMG][/IMG]
This photo is from the 640 and the same "spoke on lower dimple" on the 450 faces left. Does this sound correct? JayBo

attaboy,,,you got the teepee right,,,,, however the 'V' is formed by the spokes to the left and right of the valve stem when viewed like described in next sentence!!!!and thanks for the illustration,,that's beyond my wizardry,,,OBTW,,,that would be a great idea please take the next pics on a table and orient the photo so that the valve stem 'V' and 'Teepee' are at bottom of pic,,it would be easier to see,,,then we'll put he pics with my previous explanation post

NOTE: JaBo1 and i corrected all this ,,and the final product is in Post#625

Originally Posted by JayBo1

Of the proposed solutions you have presented, I think the best would be "1=get the correct rim for your hub." To do this I could either send the rim back and ask for the correct replacement (means finding suitable packaging, arranging courier, etc) or order a matching rim (18"x2.5" black with yellow "double flag" text) for the 450 and order a correct rim for the 640 (21"x1.6" black with yellow "double flag" text). If you are interested in providing a quote for the two rims including USPS to Perth Australia, please PM me.
Cheers again
JayBo

ok ,,,i see where you are coming from,regarding the distance issue,,,i can accomodate you on that,,i assume you want standard holes to recycle your spokes or would you like me to set you up with the trick superlace set-up,,beefier ss spkes n nipples and the better lace pattern,ie ax3 versus the oem x2,,,????

FYI,,,lacing and truing is the easy part,,,prepping and picking the best components is what superlacing is all about,,essentially the,,,,in essence i'd send you the prepped rims with the optimal spokes n nipples

when you decide which way to go holler,,,,,i just realized you are doing all this work on a big 4stroke,,,is the 450 also a 4stroke???,,i can't remember,,,reason i'm saying this is that if you are into building strong /durable /hasselfree wheels then you shuld do a serious double look at upgrading your rear hubs to cush drive,,,probably the best long term money saving investment you can make on any current 450cc and above 4-stroke rear wheel,,,,we are replacing blown hubs on every 4-stroke manufacturers rear wheels,,,the hubs that worked great for 2 stroke power delivery,,simply can't hack the powerul punch a 4 stroke delivers,,,i have the solution for that too,,,it's called cush drive hubs,,,in your case the oem lc-4 supermoto hub and cush drive assembly will fit/work for both bikes circa $380 and there are now trick billet hubs and sprocket carriers in a variety of colors circa $499 we have both in stock,,sorta like these.. that i designed/speced in a collaboration with RAD Mfg




later,,,woody

PS,,i want re-iterate my thanks for moving these questions to this thread,,because now everyone gets achance to be in on these problems/solutions,,and it save sme a bunch of time saying the same thin gover n over again!!!

[JayBo1]

Originally Posted by woody's wheel works

hi i edited post #625 for greater clarity and jaybo1 will edit post #628 to make it clearer,,it's almost on the money...essentially there are two issues we are dealing with ,,,one is to understand indexing and the other is to understand where the optimal places are to drill rims for valve stems and rim-locks,,,and ultimately, share a common tech jargon/talk language

woody

Edit done

[woody's wheel works]

Originally Posted by JayBo1

Edit done

if one picture is 'worth a thousand words' your homework is worth a million!!
ATTABOYs to ya

woody

[beemer67]

Hi Woody,

A query.

I need to replace a rear rim on my 1981 BMW R80G/S. I will be switching from the original 2.15 x 18 (my bike was an early 1981) to the later specification 2.50 x 18.

After a larger spring upgrade on my Works rear shock, I am getting tire rub when using the more aggressive off-road tires.

My question. Can I lace on a new rim with say a 1/8" offset away from the shock without causing handling problems? Is there a maximum offset before a problem?

And while I am asking a question, do you sell a thicker spoke than the BMW 4mm, that would still work in hub and rim?
Cheers,
Chris

[woody's wheel works]

Originally Posted by beemer67

Hi Woody,

A query.

I need to replace a rear rim on my 1981 BMW R80G/S. I will be switching from the original 2.15 x 18 (my bike was an early 1981) to the later specification 2.50 x 18.]

great idea...works mo better

[After a larger spring upgrade on my Works rear shock, I am getting tire rub when using the more aggressive off-road tires.

My question. Can I lace on a new rim with say a 1/8" offset away from the shock without causing handling problems? Is there a maximum offset before a problem?]

yes we can move them over several ways up to 1/8'' with a modified /longer inner spacer,,as long as your brakes are making full contact,,,and we've moved the rim over up to 3/8''using several techniques,,,up to 3/16'' we can just fiddle with the spokes,,,more than that ,we x-lace the wheel for better triangulation....sorry,,,,no handling problems

[And while I am asking a question, do you sell a thicker spoke than the BMW 4mm, that would still work in hub and rim?
Cheers,
Chris

when we Superlace these wheels we go with ss 8g spokes and bigger nipples,,,,damn near bullet-proof

guaranteed,,,woody

[oprahrider]

I'm thinking about selling my 2nd set of wheels off my 2004 DR650. I really don't need them and they would make some nice motard wheels for a hardcore knee dragging kind of rider .
My 50 year old knees barely drag my ass out of bed

The rear is stamped RK Excel J17 M/C X MT350 DOT 407 Japan 804
with a 140-80-17 Karoo (very tight fit) Stock DR650 hub

The front is stamped J19 M/C X MT250 402 Japan 304
with a 110-80-19 Karoo. Stock DR650 hub

WHAT DIFFERENT MAKES AND MODELS OF MOTORCYCLES WILL THESE WHEELS BOLT UP TOO?, AND WHATS A FAIR PRICE TO SELL THEM FOR WITHOUT ROTORS OR CUSH HUB/SPROCKET ?

Thanks for your expertise in these matters.

Bill "Oprahrider" Handrahan

[woody's wheel works]

Originally Posted by oprahrider

I'm thinking about selling my 2nd set of wheels off my 2004 DR650. I really don't need them and they would make some nice motard wheels for a hardcore knee dragging kind of rider .
My 50 year old knees barely drag my ass out of bed

The rear is stamped RK Excel J17 M/C X MT350 DOT 407 Japan 804
with a 140-80-17 Karoo (very tight fit) Stock DR650 hub

The front is stamped J19 M/C X MT250 402 Japan 304
with a 110-80-19 Karoo. Stock DR650 hub

WHAT DIFFERENT MAKES AND MODELS OF MOTORCYCLES WILL THESE WHEELS BOLT UP TOO?, AND WHATS A FAIR PRICE TO SELL THEM FOR WITHOUT ROTORS OR CUSH HUB/SPROCKET ?

Thanks for your expertise in these matters.

Bill "Oprahrider" Handrahan

i imagine you should have circa $1100-1200 in your SM set-up,,,$800 sounds fair,,,sorry they 'll only work on another DR-650

[toolfan]

Woody -

My girlfriend has a KLR Tengai, which I'm supposed to pretty up this winter. It has rusty spokes, and I was thinking it might look better if I replaced the rims with something black and painted the frame black.

I've never really messed around with a motorcycle wheel, but I've built/trued mtn bike wheels before.

Could you sell me a wheel building "kit" (spokes, nipples and rims), and if so,
what would the price comparo be, as opposed to sending you the hubs:

Thanks in advance.