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Old 04-15-2009, 02:54 PM   #1651
MCmad OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman
Thank you guys for words of encouragement and for technical info and advice! :)
Few more beers and I will feel better :) tomorrow will continue my game :)
So far I tried to loose axle pinch bolts and axle bolt to see if I got something wrong, but it seems that was not a problem - nothing changed. Tomorrow I will take top yoke nut off and let it all settle a bit before tightenting it with forks already in both yokes.
I also realized I could do calculation of "sticking" force by measuring sags on down stroke (push front down and release) and up stroke (pull bar up and release) and just take middle measurement.
Perhaps I am not that far off. Seems I got free sag about 30 mm and rider sag about 55 mm, which kinda almost OK :)
Will continue tomorrow.
yep that's sounds close particularly if fork is longer travel,and ive also heard that about white power forks, take ride if you can before you get to techo about it after all how they actually work is what counts, that's it work time
Ps have you increased rear travel by same amount to keep geometry balance
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:05 PM   #1652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 800rider
yep that's sounds close particularly if fork is longer travel,and ive also heard that about white power forks, take ride if you can before you get to techo about it after all how they actually work is what counts, that's it work time
Ps have you increased rear travel by same amount to keep geometry balance
Have not gotten to rear yet. Now waiting for sumo wheels back from lacer and universal (UFO Superbike) front fender dlivery, WPs have no fender mounts. E.g. no really riding, just circling backyard. Reason being very simple :) without fender if my extended suspension travel will result in front wheel hitting something I'd raher have fender between wheel and bike plus front brake hose stil dangling without fixation point I plan to put on fender mount.

Then next challenge will be to work out "rule of the thumb" rear preload settings for when I have 21/17 offroad wheels on vs. 17/17 wide sumo wheels on. On my DR I really miss super-adjustable Wilbers shock I have on my VTR, but - budget, budget...
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:14 PM   #1653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 800rider
Ps have you increased rear travel by same amount to keep geometry balance
Now you made his heart bleed for another upgrade! Unless he already has a upgrade from the Germans (or was "WHITE POWER" from Austria) for his Japanese.

Bluesman. Is it true that WP Extremes work in a way that one does the "up" and the other takes care of the "downwards" movement. Sorry for the untechnical language - I'm getting ready for bed.

About my brakes. I've decided to go for the bigger disc version, but for now I installed the new master cylinder (from gixxer, was it?) and already I have better performance. Although the brakes are far from normal, when talking about the feel, BUT I don't have to pull the lever like a madman - Now I can brake with 2 fingers like a bikerboy.
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:26 PM   #1654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morse
Now you made his heart bleed for another upgrade! Unless he already has a upgrade from the Germans (or was "WHITE POWER" from Austria) for his Japanese.

Bluesman. Is it true that WP Extremes work in a way that one does the "up" and the other takes care of the "downwards" movement. Sorry for the untechnical language - I'm getting ready for bed.

About my brakes. I've decided to go for the bigger disc version, but for now I installed the new master cylinder (from gixxer, was it?) and already I have better performance. Although the brakes are far from normal, when talking about the feel, BUT I don't have to pull the lever like a madman - Now I can brake with 2 fingers like a bikerboy.

Well, this is good news indeed! I felt that gixxer 5/8 was good "do it all" master, so I am sure when you get to second stage of upgrade it will get really better. I could not undertstand what Suzuki did/chose for that stock front caliper to make it work that....average to bad :) Good that at least you managed to have better feel/movement.
Yep, left fork is for compression, right for rebound dampings. What I meant was a bit different - is that if I have "too new" seals I can get rid of friction effect on sag measurement by taking average between position where fork stop if I push it down and release and where it stops if I lift front off and will slowly put it back on the ground. More back breaking lifting now at least I have bike lift to help me in my balancing act - nobody here to help me out except my wife with her featherweight stature
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:40 PM   #1655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman
Yep, left fork is for compression, right for rebound dampings.
I got the KLX forks today; are there stock settings for comp/rebound? Or is it trial and error?

I don't have much experience with suspension settings. In fact I may just keep the forks until I can also afford a rear shock, and get it all done at once.
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #1656
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Ray, don;t worry - it is trial and error, but it is really easy when you just need scredriver to adjust those...
Go to WP suspension website, they have easy "troubleshooting" guide like "if bike does ....... do this" style, no nonsense and easy to use.
Sag in my case is so painful because I have to cut spacers, take forks off bike, change spacers, put them back...and balance DR with one hand measuring stuff...
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:14 PM   #1657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman
Have not gotten to rear yet. Now waiting for sumo wheels back from lacer and universal (UFO Superbike) front fender dlivery, WPs have no fender mounts. E.g. no really riding, just circling backyard. Reason being very simple :) without fender if my extended suspension travel will result in front wheel hitting something I'd raher have fender between wheel and bike plus front brake hose stil dangling without fixation point I plan to put on fender mount.

Then next challenge will be to work out "rule of the thumb" rear preload settings for when I have 21/17 offroad wheels on vs. 17/17 wide sumo wheels on. On my DR I really miss super-adjustable Wilbers shock I have on my VTR, but - budget, budget...
What are the real front end height changes from stock with new forks and different wheel combos,
whats the dif between DR motard and DR standard you guys better get you tape measures out for Bluesman
Does the Motard just use longer fork and standard rear ???
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:18 PM   #1658
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Originally Posted by ray_rev
I got the KLX forks today; are there stock settings for comp/rebound? Or is it trial and error?

I don't have much experience with suspension settings. In fact I may just keep the forks until I can also afford a rear shock, and get it all done at once.
If you can give me specs of KLX fork eg travel and year model I should be able to help you out

This is one of my other hobbies incase you dont trust me ( I wouldnt )




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Old 04-15-2009, 07:47 PM   #1659
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Offer accepted and my Tuppence on Suspension Improvements

Quote:
I was thinking its time we sampled some American culture , lets see some pics of the Good Old US of A
OK...You're On.....I can always use an excuse for a ride.

Remember I'm in NORTHERN California. Don't expect photos of LA, deserts or movie stars.

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On the front suspension front, having grafted XR650 forks onto my AfricaAlp, I have some experience in this area.

The major problems I have seen people run into are (a)ignoring what the front wheel will do on full bump (compression)and (b)not balancing the rear suspension with the front.

Longer travel forks CAN be nice. They look cool and certainly allow higher speeds over broken ground but many people do not take the time to discover what happens when those shiny forks bottom. Take the time to put the bike on the stand, remove the springs and run the wheel up (full compression) until it stops. Now....has the wheel contacted any part of the bike?.....frame, crashbars etc. With the wheel at full compression turn the bars lock-to-lock...did anything get in the way?...oil cooler, cables, crashbars (again). Now mount the front fender and do this again.

The last thing you want is for the tire to contact a hard part or for the fender to get pushed down onto the tire. You'll have instant braking at the very moment in time when you don't want it.

For example:...your riding along a nice dirt or desert road...it's straight and looks clear...the speed start to go up....and up...hey lookit me! I'm a Dakar Hero..about then you see the big "G-out" wash ahead with no way to slow down enough....you drop in..... the suspension compresses all the way.....and suddenly.....you're flying through the air with the bike tumbling along behind.

You really really don't want anything in the way of the front tire.

The other problem is not compensating with the rear. With the addition of your new forks you've now build a "chopper". The rake is extreme and the you'll have to get special dispensation from the Pope to get the bike to turn.

A longer shock with more travel or an intelligent modification of the rear linkage geometry will help balance the bike again. If you're on a budget, you can simply build some sort of an extension for the rear shock to make it longer (this is easy on the Transalps but I have no experience taking the DR shock apart.....yet). Extending the shock will not increase rear travel but will alter ride height and THAT's what you're after.

OK....you've done all this....what could possibly go wrong??

The first time you put down the side stand and your bike falls over, you'll see your first problem.....extending the side stand and/or center stand. This is easily accomplished with some tubing and a bit of electric glue (welding).

The bike will now go faster over rough ground but then you get to that "trials" section. You get a bit off balance and have to "dab".....WHOA...WTF??....Who put the ground way down there......results are tipover and crashbar testing.

Having your bike way up there requires long legs....or great balance.

So - I'm not saying "Don't Do It!!" Just that you should know what to expect.

I've got the "long legged" ride on the AfricaAlp and, personally, I really like the balance and handling of the DR just the way it is..
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:24 PM   #1660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 800rider
This is one of my other hobbies incase you dont trust me ( I wouldnt )
The perfect hooligan tool! I tend to stay clear of these types of machines - for my health.

What is it? Don't recognize the front wheel or the bashplate
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:28 PM   #1661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladder106
...I've got the "long legged" ride on the AfricaAlp and, personally, I really like the balance and handling of the DR just the way it is..
I couldn't agree with you more. Its strange, the DR being the first bike I ever climbed on and just felt at home. The balance, feel and handling of the bike is just amazing. I could do little balancing tricks on the test ride i would never have been able to do on my other bikes.
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:54 PM   #1662
MCmad OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladder106
OK...You're On.....I can always use an excuse for a ride.

Remember I'm in NORTHERN California. Don't expect photos of LA, deserts or movie stars.

_____________________________

On the front suspension front, having grafted XR650 forks onto my AfricaAlp, I have some experience in this area.

The major problems I have seen people run into are (a)ignoring what the front wheel will do on full bump (compression)and (b)not balancing the rear suspension with the front.



The bike will now go faster over rough ground but then you get to that "trials" section. You get a bit off balance and have to "dab".....WHOA...WTF??....Who put the ground way down there......results are tipover and crashbar testing.

Having your bike way up there requires long legs....or great balance.

So - I'm not saying "Don't Do It!!" Just that you should know what to expect.

I've got the "long legged" ride on the AfricaAlp and, personally, I really like the balance and handling of the DR just the way it is..
Good advice, to be quite honest I like my Bikes as low to the ground as possible within their design parameters At 5,10, 1/2, I want to be able to touch the ground easy and a bike will always turn better lower to the Ground as long as it has sufficient ground clearance on the Road or the Dirt but if you taller than me and heavier than me you could easily cope with more travel, as long as ladder says it balanced front to rear ,
I set all my bikes up with fork as far up as possible ( considering Ladders en-dos ) and then balance the rear to that,

So say you KLX front end Lifts the steering head height by 25mm then you will need to crank the back preload up to raise the back a similar amount ( presuming your original balance was ok ) I think that's about 5 full turns on adjuster ring, if you cant get that much a 5 or 10 mm difference should still be ok youl just have to be more agresive on throttle in corner to unload front to allow bike to turn easy
Also note that if your rear shock is old or worn your bike may tend to pogo stick at rear with to much preload and you ride quality at low speed may disappear ( one way to find out though try it first )


There you go have to go work on circuit bike now to get ready for track day

Cant wait for American pic;s

PS, Ed its the blue one on my signiture

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:43 AM   #1663
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Wow, this is great bunch of info guys.
BTW - just thought - Ray, I hope it will not scare you off on changing forks ;)
In the mean time - since Robmoto working on similar conversion using Extremes, to answer some of questions....
This is not first conversion I've done with front end swaps on different bikes, but first on my own bike and first time with WP stuff. I am not big fan of WP frankly. As ex-engineer I can see that they ran tolerances higher than Japanese stock items. But back to geometry. Here is information on WP Extremes if anybody needs it.
-Motard vs. Offroader - 800rider, sorry about confusion there - no, nothing changes in suspension whatsoever. "Motard" setup is not longer forks on my DR, it's just wheels change, nothing else. Not really motards, just road bike is my aim.
-Reason I mentioned rear preload adustment is to compensate change in geometry when you install front 17" wheel. With me on board DR (not only DR, every 650+ dualsport I tried) those bikes have tendency to kinda weave at 95+ mph if rear is too high. E.g. switching to motard wheels I will need to decrease preload on rear, because as we all know it changes ride height. But it does not need to be dramatic change. I have played with rear preload on many many bikes and DR stock shock suprisingly good for simple item. Plust I have black (hardest) rear spring and it works for my weight and luggage.
- No, DR with WP Extremes sits precisely at same height (if not even 5 mm lower) as with stock forks.
- Yes, there is danger of contact at bottoming when running 21" wheel. Extremes on Berg are only 20 mm longer than stock DR SR43, but they have 40 mm longer stroke (280 mm). However, in stock state on Berg they use long preload spacer which reduces stroke from 300 (KTM version of WP Extremes) to 280 (Husaberg). Increasing spacer lenght automatically kills part of stroke.
Because "head" of DR requires longer steering stem for WP clamps than stock Husaberg and because Berg/KTM clamps are 3-bolt lower 2-bolt upper thick clamps now forks have only 270-275 "free" part of inner tube under lower yoke between top of dust seals and bottom of lower yoke. It means that forks will not be able bottom out at 280 mm but dust seals will stop against lower yoke (bad) if I will manage to compress all 275 mm of forks.
However, fork springs I sources from Hessler are way thicker (5.25 mm vs. 4.9 mm), 30 mm longer but more coils and with all spacers I believe I intentionally "lost" some other 20 mm of fork stroke. E,g. we dealing with 10-15 mm more travel than stock DR. With 17" wheel it does not matter at all - it will not contact anything on bike as it is smaller diameter.
-With stock 21 inch wheel on offroad MT21s I run - I just testing it with bike on the lift by pushing whole front wheel and forks through yokes to imitate bottoming out to see waht is works case scenario. Yes, there is possibility of intereference at full compression (I mean - full full, all 270 mm) but I am not done checking what intereference. I will let you know guys.
- Since front fender will be mounted on lower part of fork leg it moves with wheel and worst case fender will hit bike, not wheel. I still got to play with this one to see possibilities.

I am now tempted to drop from office, get back home and get my hands on bike, but must resist
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:15 AM   #1664
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oops...fortgot - about intereference...
On my test results - or worst case scenario - may be it is not when forks really bottom out, may be they bottom out earlier, I just pushed forks through clamps till dust seals contact lower yoke. I got 15 mm left between dust seals and lower yoke when wheel comes in contact with edge of "nose" (curable) but it also gets in contact...guess with what....my own self made front mount of crashbars E.g. I need to split front mount in two, remove middle part of pipe and make new part instead. Easy job.
So - all in all MUCH better than I thought.
There is also easy possibility to reduce stroke "rigidly" by placing 15 mm spacer under lower bottoming out cone within fork leg. But I still try to figure out if it will affect somehow fork operation or not. I think it will not, but....need to think.
Since my wheels for this summer will be 17" I will not have to deal with problem until first full-scale offroad ride, which seems to be distant possibility as I have too many travel plans for summer.
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:43 AM   #1665
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Makes sense no wonder my DR so stable it backside drags slightly, ( eg opposite to Motard Bum up stance ) an XT rider suggested it pushed the front wheel when he rode it, but It doesn't for me though I may lift the Rear 10mm and try it ( I rode his XT660 but couldn't figure it out, the centre of gravity was higher and the front tucked I thought ) and not once did I lose the front Wheel on the Track with those settings even with the Cont Dual sport Escape on the front.

Just out of interest my fork tubes are up 25mm in yokes and rear sag with me on is 100mm ( stock fork )

Some more pic,s to keep things colourful till Ladder arives

I was 17 and the year was 1980 that XR was new and cost $1995, as per my aviator ,then I was 500 rider and there was no such thing as the internet ( man Im Old )\
Note 23" front, now thats a proper wheel

The XR was ever bit what the the DR is today, It could cruise at 110kph on the Back wheel
But in truth was not the tourer the DR is, A couple of Trips I did at 140kph and I was so tired from hanging on, Dont think Id even notice on DR apart from the tickets

My first Real Bike a 1974 DT250 I was 15 or 16 and I still remember it cost $650 I though I was in heaven, but I wasn,t
Side picture was a 1981 KLX 250 $2850 great offroad bad on road in that way Dirt bikes havnt changed


Opps I may have started something, come on boys show us your old bikes ( just photograph the photographs in you old fashion albums)

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