International BMW Rear Drive Poll

The FD on my '95 GS started to leak at 114k kms. I just replaced the big seal since the bearing was intact and there was no rear wheel play in it

Dan.

Jim

yeah, but it does not fulfill your initial purpose either , that of "putting into contest the discussion of final drive failures" Because it doesn't need context. I totally understand that folks will be very vociferous about final drive failures after experiencing one. So that's the context.

And still, once in a while, a less interested rider is going to chime in and say "Yeah, but its isolated and BMW (and now here's really the litmus test) is good to the individuals who experienced them during a warranty period.

So, logically, the context is already there, with a slight assumption that owners who have experienced the issue or fear the issue will discuss it more. It is only a lack of empathy that spirals the conversations out of control. I have empathy for those whose bikes break, especially if it costs money. Yet, at the same time... its a machine and things break and especially drive systems... chains belts cush drives, At the end of the day, my bet is on the BMW final drive system.

Now the way to truly context this is to make it worth something. Let's build a pool, guys who bet 1USD that their drives will never fail vs those that bet it will. I will bet the pool could pay for a new drive from Mad Max for the next victim...

A poll is really useles unless it can really derive a fact with a representative sample. his doesn't do that.

Which is why you are a disillusioned (and quite interested rider, you're in a BMW forum, dontcha know) I have some terrible news:

I hate wet clutches... hate 'em.
I love Canbus... love it
I may not like the Key, but I love my ESA

Dissilution comes from having an illusion in the first place. If you take a bike off-road, you're going to work on it, if you take a 1200CC bike off-road, you're going to break it... a lot. The R1200GS is not an off-road bike... its an everywhere bike. A Swiss Army bike.

I use mine for the purpose it was designed; Its a kick butt sport tourer, a great traveller, a monster all-roads bike with Quasi Knobbies on it and once in a while it can get you into trouble AND get you out. Both Honda and KTM make fine enduro bikes.

Many companies make competitors to the GS, they're not as successful because they don't have all the features the GS has.

I think many people (I hate to pick on AMericans but we're the worst) shouldn't rely on advertising to pick a ride. They should get the bike in the first place that suits them best.

My bike has a dry clutch, because I hate wet clutches pumping shards of metal into my engine... I want to ride my bike for 20 years. I can buy a new clutch, I can't buy a device to keep a wet clutch from mucking up my bike. ANd dry clutches are easy to repair/replace. Plus, I don't burn up clutches.

I want the things you say you don't want and those things work awesome for me. I use my GS as an all-roads tourer and once in a while go hopping down fire roads and gravel.

All of the things that dissillusion you... the boxer engine, the dry clutch, the simple and elegant light wiring the lightness, the shaft drive... are the reasons why the GS really is the most popular single model of bike in the world. And the bike really is a tank, it may not be bulletproof and no machine is, but I'll bet the farm on the thing taking me cross-country better than any other bike.

Version A: You said it is useless, so: no use.
Version B: Very serious use (since you say the data can be misused). I plan for publishing the collected data via Weakileaks. For example you would find a listing of all liars names with German roots who vigorously claim they never ever had a failed FD, but factually had a serious one in 2005.

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The simple truth is this: Over the last few months discussions over FD issues got more, at least in the German GS-er forum. It is the largest GS-Forum in EU, just to give you a perspective. One of the most debated subjects over there is a posting by someone who claimed crashing bcs of oil on his rear tire leaking from the FD seal, and suing BMW with some success.

The case itself does not matter much to me. But the arguments exchanged included several statements I thought can't be made. Example: People stated firmly the seal would leak punctually every 40,000 km. (Therefore the mileage poll-question)

In the German forum a poll can only be opened by the admins. So I asked these admins for opening an FD poll. The answer was, that a multi-part poll such as mine is too complicated for the members.

I hate us Germans for always seeing the problems first, but chances only after tiring debates. I believe most members are not stupid, but rather this being a pretty stupid answer. So deciding in between spending my time trying to convince the admins over there, or saving time and just doing it myself, I decided for the later. That is how my tiny and insignificant site became the poll's home. As of now I am happy about the location. There were likely no international votes in a German forum.

The poll will stay at GSRI forever. If for example somebody else will say again "the seal fails every 40,000 km", or "most of the R 12 are affected" me or anybody would have a better basis for forum discussions. That is all.

This too I did explain already before, albeit admittedly in a shorter form. It is getting boring by now, and I guess readers find that, too.

Before asking questions consider this, plus also the following:

1. Forum discussions often expand the problems into the universe.
2. Readers are too often left more confused than educated. One say 'try left', the next says 'I have good experience with right', then a third comes saying 'No no everything is wrong, don't you see it's up, dummy?', and then one more says 'down, down' ....
3. Whatever someone thinks about scientific issues related to internet polls does not matter to me with regards to my poll.
4. I don't care much for your FD discussions. Those who yell loudest or know how to (mis)use words best will win. Regardless who is actually right.
5. Don't sell me forum debates about FD issues as more useful than a few crisp figures.

* Mr. Efficiency [your post #104]

Thank you for your thoughtful #104, which also quotes my post #76.
You made a number of good points, and I agree with much (but not everything) of what you say (and I suppose you are at least in partial agreement with a number of points I have made over several posts - or if not so, I hope you will hit me with plenty of intelligent criticism).

Guess you won't mind me giving some thoughts-in-reply to points you raise, even though this is basically an FD Failure (& statistics) Poll thread.
The thread topic has wandered well off-course at times - ranging as far as the Titanic (mea culpa, post #89) and Freudian Analysis of peter-k (non mea culpa).

* Wet/dry clutches.
Each has its good and bad points.
Personally, I've never had a spot of trouble with dry clutches - and, in their favor, they do give off that "unhappy hot smell" to warn you that you are over-doing things - where a wet clutch simply 'disappears' mighty quickly (so you ought to use them accordingly, with minimum use of slippage).

The major reliability weakness of dry clutches is their vulnerability to minor oil-seal leakage - again, less of a problem for a pure road-bike, but not an attractive feature when you are in remote regions.

I agree about the inelegance of the wet clutch design - it is disgusting to think about that circulating crap in the oil deriving from clutchplates (and stuff from the gears, too).
Nevertheless, whatever theories and attitudes we hold, we have to learn by observing what happens "in Nature" - a bird's wing is not super-efficient in engineering design, but it works well enough for survival purposes : and the feathered structure is remarkably robust against damage of function.

So, we look around, and see wet clutches everywhere - it appears to be a motorcycle design favored by evolution [cars are another story].
Overall, wet clutches survive and thrive.
As long as you change the oil and filters frequently.

* Canbus. . . . . hmmm.
Beautifully lightweight, and elegant in a sense.
Again, okay for a pure road-bike, but not so good when things start going wrong in mid-Africa, or even the backroads of Death Valley.
Clever design, but not an "appropriate" design for an adventure-tourer.

* The dreaded "Key".
Same thing - clever, but not appropriate (even for road-bikes,maybe).
Kind of suspect it exists more for show-room sales effect than for security effect. I am always in favor of high security in this wicked world - but there absolutely has to be a viable backup system for out-of-town situations (maybe something with a 30 minute delay function? - something to get you out of deepest doo-doo or other dire circumstances).

* ESA.
Indeed, a lovely luxury, when working well.
But what about "down the track" - in both senses.
It does make some sense (unlike those rain-sensing-wipers on cars).
But KISS is the guiding principle for achieving reliability.

* Disillusioned? Me - not so, not at all.
( Interested in the FD topic - YES ; disinterested - also YES - as explained earlier.)
And that is because I was never "illusioned" in the first place.

Years before the first R80G/S appeared (with its Off-road adventurous "Image") I had made my first transcontinental round-trip (about 30% was on rough & primitive dirt roads).
My choice was an old-fashioned boxer, for some of the very good reasons you have mentioned - fuss-free sand & mud resistant shaftdrive, and the KISSingly simple and robustly damage-resistant aluminium cooling fins.
For at least two reasons, I (yes, anecdotally) had no trouble with that bike's Final Drive - it was a low-powered bike, and the FD design was simple, old-fashioned, and *proven*.
The same simple, air-cooled, shaftdriven reasoning applied also to the MotoGuzzi NTX650 that I rode for many years, and took to many "wild and woolly" places - in addition it had a comfortable dualsport suspension, a 32 liter tank, and a 390 lb dry weight.
I was already "out there and doing it" well before I could be "illusioned and suckered-in" by Mr Boorman and BMW's Advert Agency.

Me : disillusioned - NO ; bitter - NO ; disappointed in modern GSs - YES, they could so easily be more reliable and adventure-touring-ish than they are.
I have made a number of posts on this thread - please read through them closely, and with an open mind (not jumping to conclusions because of mistaken meanings of my words, like "disinterested" - I try to be careful to use words in their standard English sense, and not in the sloppy/degraded sense of the many journalists who are uninterested in good and rational communication) - and I hope you will be inclined to agree with quite a bit of what I have written.

Many things, of course, are a matter more of perspective than opinion difference. I certainly agree with much of your praise for the basic concept of the GS boxers. They were, and are, deservedly popular in the large adventure-tourer category - but for many years they were effectively the only choice available anyway. (Despite its good points, I discount the MotoGuzzi 650 - a very large fuel tank is not enough to counter a very small band of dealers. Similarly with the very nice new StelvioNTX-1200 and its excellent Carcano Final Drive, though small tank).

There are still many good things about the 1100-1200 GSs as all-rounder bikes - but if you look at it from the dirt-road adventure-tourer perspective, you might (impartially) agree that BMW has let reliability slip below the acceptable level (particularly for a bike that advertises its robust ruggedness, and gives "encouragement" - dare I say "incitement"? - for riders to leave the bitumen far behind.
For even mild "off-road" travels, it needs to be as reliable as an axe.
And no excuses - this is not 1905.

And perhaps worse for BMW - it is not 2005 either.
The predators are circling the flock of the Faithful.
Think of the excellent Yamaha 1200 SuperTen (yes, I don't like its looks, or the water-cooling).
And think of the Triumph 800 - unproven, but very promising.

1. That's what happens in the wonderful world of the internet. The trick is to ignore 99% of it.
2. Readers who believe everything they see on the internet without credulity are too gullible ever to be re-educated.
3. It should come as no surprise when others say that your poll does not matter to them.
4. Internet discussions shouldn't be seen as authoritative about anything. Among the contributions you may find the odd pearls of wisdom but that's for the reader to determine for himself.
5. I haven't. I wouldn't. However, trying to address the inconsistency of internet discussion with something equally inconsistent is like trying to extinguish a fire by pouring oil on it.

The 2011 Stelvio has a 32 tank, better engine management and a few other things updated. Should be pretty close to the ADV now (albeit not really cheaper).

I think my R 12 GS is a brilliant motorcycle. But sometimes I also think it has become too much, and taking a step back to the spirit of the R 80 G/S would actually be a step forward. Therefore I am pleased to see that votes for lower GS weight is no.1, which lets me hope.

* peter-k . . . . . touche' . . . . . I wasn't aware of the 32 litre tank coming for the StelvioNTX. Just what it needs to be a contender in the heavyweight dualsport-tourer field. There still remains the problem of a tiny band of dealers, and just possibly the matter of engine-vibes at cruising speed (perhaps wrong - I haven't ridden one). MotoGuzzi will be handicapped by their lack of expensive Marketing Push, unfortunately.

I am impressed to see your exactly correct usage of the word English "albeit" -a word that I hesitate to use myself. Please don't take that as sounding condescendingly complimentary. 99% of reporters/journalists have barely a notion of where and when to use it - they are as clumsy as a cow with an ice-cream (as my old English teacher used to say).
Es ist ein gehobenes Wort. For literary usage, rather than spoken English - but you may well be aware of that. It is excellently compact, but rarely used in speech (except by Supreme Court Judges - who use it correctly : and by reporters - who almost never do). It has a very nineteenth-century flavor/flavour.
While I have my Professor's Hat on (Mein Hut, er hat vier Ecken . . . .) , then I should send you an apology and some explanatory notes on an earlier post of mine - but I will type up something another day.

At least now we know the intended use of the poll.

Jim

Mid,

An interesting reply, but it simply doesn't get to the gist of the matter. Anyone who bought this bike to punish it off-road and doesn't expect to spend thousands maintaining it need to learn more about motorcycles before they buy one.

I happen to have been down th trail quite a bit on GSes, at the same time, I don't get in over my head. Mayhaps this is why my BMWs don't break. I hear tails of woe all the time but, for example, I bet I don't have final drive problems because from time to time, I inspect it for leaks. It never has leaked enough to cause alarm, but if it did, I'd know. The one time it leaked at all, it was promptly serviced... the whole experience took about 1/2 an hour and cost me nothing.

I rode the bike home 750 miles in mixed weather over bad roads to get it serviced. I'm quite certain the bike would have gotten me over 750 miles of mixed tarmac dirt and gravel. Because it has before.

Super Tenere... drop it on that massive fan and see what happens next.
Stelvio... Uhhh, OK, as long as you believe that...
Tiger... Ya know they make this thing called an F800GS... they're the same bike (although I like the Triumph, too.)

anyone who thinks a Stelvio or tenere handles, rides and runs better than a GS is living in a purple treed world. They are wonderful bikes... but even that wonderful new Ducati doesn't do anything for me (and its a real uber-bike) Weight? I haven't seen a lighter liter class ADV tourer, is somebody making one? I might be interested

Now here's the funny part, I'm not even a kool-aid drinker. I love all kinds of bikes and normally, I just ignore the missives of the "you know I could design a better bike" crowd or the "I know they don't know what they're doing" crowd. I've ridden across a continent... done it on an airhead and on an oilhead... trust me, on my new GS, I'd be done, sipping hot cocoa in Deadhorse about two months before I showed up on an airhead. As much as I love the simplicity and elegance of the airhead, I like the safety, performance and new simplicity of the modern bikes more.

The bottom line is the crtics will always be out there but I will tell you, as someone that knows bikes, that there isn't a better bike in the world right now than the R1200GS from an all-round perspective. But what do I know, I like dry clutches and Canbus and ESA and ABS and ASC... and all the other stuff nobody else has. For the first time in 30,000 miles, my ASC kicked in the other day, there was a word for it... worth every Pfennig. But really its just to show you. There are riders out there who've been over all kinds of terrain and raced a little and who've been at it since they were nine who want all the things you don't like about the boxers. I love tuning and servicing my bike with a laptop. I like being able to do precise maintenance for free at home, I like being able to get my wheel off in two minutes. I want to be able to drop a shaft and have a new clutch in in time to go out in the evening. I like simplicity, I like one wire, I like theft deterrence. I love simple, effective and efficient dry clutches.

I really wanted my bike for exactly what I wanted it for, I love my dirt bike because it goes off road. Honda makes awesome ones but be warned, dirt bikes cost time and money, like any machine...

Now, why someone would pass the KTM 690 super enduro on the way to the BMW dealership if they were going to beat on the bike is simply a matter of a poorly educated customer. But I personally don't want to ride a dirt bike 2000 miles to my next mild dual sport opportunity. I ride my generously apportioned GS and then hit the gravel and dirt, all the while mindful of the fact that I'm not riding a dirt bike.

Not at all.

I myself am not too happy with my English. See how many of my posts are showing the italic "changed " line underneath. My English teacher was very good. But 1. that is 35 years ago and 2. I understood too late ...

You are not owing me anything.

I've been following this discussion from day 1 and I'm amazed at some of the responses. I really don't see the harm in what Peter is doing. So what? He has admitted the poll in rather meaningless and sort of a just for fun thing to get information out onto the Web, so why all the bashing and accusations? Again, so what?

As a former V-Strom owner/rider I became aware of Peter's activities through his other web venture at VSRI and found that a very valuable place to haunt and packed with lots of valuable information and good people who are an asset to the world-wide motorcycle community.

I don't know Peter and have never even communicated with him, but AFAIC, I welcome him to ADV and hope he can contribute here too.

* Mr. Efficiency,
A good post, your #111.
Well worth reading, for all of us.

There IS much to praise about late-model big GSs - some good features are distinctly superior to those of other manufacturers : some features are more dubious, but are arguably good with certain circumstances / certain riders.
For myself, I would be prepared to accept the package deal (which I criticized), provided that BMW grafted-on a Carcano single-sided Final Drive - but that is a facile thing to say : the real world is complex and multi-faceted, and my personal "wishes" are unlikely to turn into "horses" (as the saying goes).
But still, BMW Motorrad could "try harder" with the 1200GS, in the outstanding & controversial area of transmission reliability.

We'll have to agree to differ about dry clutches. Yes, they're good - in their place.
I'm pleased that you (anecdotally) have not had trouble with them (nor have I - anecdotally). You see some BMW owners complaining about trouble & expense of clutch replacement when oil leaks occur - but it's hard to recall an anecdote about someone getting dangerously stranded by clutch failure in Alaska or the Atacama.
The dry clutch & and oil leak scenario is (in perspective) a weakness of very low probability indeed (unlike the problematic FD failure scenario).
To me, it is just a little puzzling that new-ish cars & 4x4s seem to have a lower incidence of oil/clutch problems - but I haven't conducted a poll of car mechanics !! . . . . I get my info from the truly excellent "Dog and Lemon Guide", and buy a new copy each year. The Guide is entertaining as well as informative, and has some superb background chapters.
Great pity it doesn't cover motorcycles.

As for the rest of the features you mention, we may be much more "on the same side of the fence" than you were thinking. If I have given you the impression that I am a Luddite when it comes to engineering advances, then I am guilty of poor communication.

Sure, KISS should always be the engineer's starting point for achieving a high level of reliability. But often enough, adding some complexity can give significant advances in function and efficiency. This is fine - provided that superb reliability comes with the package.
Prime example : Fuel Injection - complex AND excellent reliability - definitely three cheers for the engineers.
Another : car airbags - despite Mr Iacocca's initial misgiving, they have proved 99.999% reliable.
ASC - as you say, a great product : it only needs to save you once, to be worthwhile.
Same with ABS : one "save" justifies it. It's plain commonsense (despite the fiery political volcanoes on another thread).
[They do say that the big Yamaha's ABS is good enough to be left on all the time - but I'd still like to have an on/off switch for the ABS acting on the rear wheel].
The water-cooling on the 1200-SuperTen is doubtless superbly efficient & quiet (same as with the F800GS) if well-maintained and protected from damage - but as we have both implied, it has the fault of vulnerability.

Solving the Problems of the World while sitting around the friendly campfire :-
The SuperTenere and the StelvioNTX - haven't ridden them : and if I were to, I would want a full month to get used to the feel of each one's handling.
However, experienced moto-journalists give them a fair rating while awarding the R1200GS (not the GSA) the top position for all-round riding pleasure (though perhaps not on bumpy single-track stuff where the backward-angled compression of USD forks gives an advantage).
All in all, the Telelever is a Good Thing : and I look forward to BMW bringing out the Next Big Thing - a long-travel design of the Hossack/Duolever fork type.
Could be done - and yes, Armchair Criticism can be fun.
(Why else did our Caveman ancestors invent the campfire?)

Forgot to mention the 1200-Multistrada.
Obviously an impressive machine for bitumen, and perhaps for the hardest of hard-packed gravel roads. Its plethora of electronic fandangles might eventually lead to grief - but we won't worry too much about that, because nobody is going to be riding one to the Atacama or Timbuctoo. Which could actually be attempted with a Pirelli MT60-R Corsa on the front wheel - but sadly, that's about as close to a front semi-knobby as 17 inchers get.

Punishing the GS off-road? Nope, not for me.
Punishment is what super-hero Enduro/Rallyists (with back-up trucks following) like to hand out to their machines.

The sensible survivalist is slower, and respects his machine - it is his horse (in the Wild West sense) on which his life can depend.
But he expects an adventure-tourer bike to be engineered to cope (reliably - i.e. much, much better than 96%) with a lot of moderate bumps, including a thousand or three miles of corrugations.

He expects also to spend time and money on maintenance before each big ride of (say) 5,000 - 15,000 miles.
Back in 1905, he expected to be doing emergency repairs (often) and much routine maintenance - by the roadside.
A century later, riders expect - rightly - about 99% less of that sort of roadside stuff.

And there is the gist of the matter - are these reasonable expectations being met?
Nobody would begrudge new rear seals & bearings each 40,000 miles routinely : but it is the low-mileage and sudden unexpected FD Failures that are the heart of the problem for adventure-touring riders.
Other manufacturers of shaftdrive bikes seem to be doing fairly well.
Anecdotally, BMW has been getting a hefty lot of flak for years - despite FD "re-designs". (Perhaps wisely, KTM, with its own problems, has not gone for shaftdrive - and at least the KTM chains & wheel bearings have achieved above-average reliability for sub-1000cc European dualsports).
Is it all false perception, somehow to be explained away by mileages and patterns of usage? The weight of anecdotal information suggests not.

If only we could see the true and exact figures for FD Failures, free of any anecdotal bias !!
BMW's persistent failure to publicize its own records of FD Failures must cause twinges of unease in even the the most naive non-cynic.

.

Why?

1. If the number is high - those who have experienced FD failure would say, "Hah, see, we told you so"

2. If the number is low - those who have never experienced a FD failure or who don't really think it is a problem would say, "Hah, see we told you so".

If BMW came out with numbers what would the numbers have to be to convince somebody to come back to the brand? What would the numbers have to be to convince somebody to leave the brand?

Plus if the number is low, those who believe that FD failures are a big problem would contend that BMW somehow altered the numbers or that they didn't factor in this or that.

If BMW just dumped the raw data, a lot of people with an always surprising amount of time on their hands would theorize about this or that and draw various conclusions. Some would agree with BMW's conclusions, some would dispute them. I can see it now, 'clearly the data does not point to a improperly installed X, but a badly designed Y.'

And on it would go.

If you or your buddy had a failure the failure rate must be way too high. If you haven't had a failure and don't know anybody who did then those who are complaining must be full of crap.

I think that's how it works.

BMW did once. They gave ABS failure data from their in-house records during the big ABS-servo debate. In Germany people jumped into their face shouting "liar". A PR-disaster.

Someone tell me, why should they? You people keep on telling me my poll being a waste of time. Your opinion, ok. But your constant debating about BMW to publish FD figures is the true waster of time, and virtual ink.

Someone please show me a manufacturer who publishes such figures.

So if actually data from the manufacturer is useless, then this poll is less than useless since it carries no authentication at all!

Jim

60 kmiles and going strong on 02 1150GS. If it ever fails spare bearing and seal are in my pannier, see

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87214&highlight=final+drive+death

Post 18 on how to possibly fix it on the road if you are in a pinch. Me no worry. Can't worry about everything.

People with way too much time on their hands, time to let it go after responding 27 times and not getting the answer you want. Odds are that if you did not hear what you wanted to hear in 4 weeks it isn't going to happen anytime soon. LET IT GO and read something else!

KP

.

Englishmatt is close to the mark when he said (half a hundred posts ago) that it was hard to stop "watching this train wreck" of a thread.

All sorts of ideas and suggestions come flying up into view.

tmex and peter-k come out with interesting comments on the inner workings of (German) manufacturing. Will their next revelations be quite horrifying - like that Santa is not real, or (worse) that BMW Motorrad is just an advertising Loss-Leader for BMW Auto?

Who knows what is coming next. A poll about the Poll?

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