Odd Handling on Test Ride

I test rode a used Honda BlackBird (CBR1100XX) yesterday, a bike I was excited to perhaps own. It was a clean, low-mileage example with no apparent damage or modifications.

The handling spooked me. Rolling through maneuvers in an empty parking lot, I was immediately struck by the amount of handlebar pressure necessary to maintain an arc. Once countersteered into, say, a left turn, I had to hold a LOT of countersteer pressure to keep the bike on-line. In other words, to initiate & maintain the left turning arc: push on left bar (normal), then keep (a lot of) pressure on the left throughout the arc (not normal). The same was true for right turns. If I were to reduce the pressure, the bike (I think) would want to stand up. No braking in any of these maneuvers.

Not sure what this characteristic is called, but it is certainly NOT "neutral handling". Remounting my ST1100 to return home, I was immediately struck (and relieved) at just how neutral my personal bike handles; it holds any arc with little to no input. So....

Questions for the experts: What is it about the BlackBird's geometry that makes it feel that way? Is the design intentional? Is it the trade-off in exchange for high-speed stability? During the test ride I wondered if, taking the extreme case, raked-out choppers exhibited similar handling characteristics? Is there a term/name for this characteristic? Is there a cure? And do some bikes display the opposite characteristic....in other words, the rider pulls on the inside bar to maintain arc?

Finally, the tires still had some tread depth but were well past their prime. They were the stock size. The rear was at about 35psi, probably underinflated; the front at 30psi. No doubt new tires would help -- but it was hard for me to imagine that new tires, properly inflated, could overcome that level of required bar pressure. But maybe they could?

I really wanted to like that bike, but it required too many brain cells to control the bar pressure -- brain cells that could otherwise be used to concentrate on the arc itself. Can it be cured or is that just the way it is with the BlackBird?

Links to educational articles are appreciated as well. Thanks Fellas!

A lot of things come to mind. Here's a few:

Tires: (As you mentioned) wear level and design can both dramatically affect handling and how the bike feels in corners. Some bikes are very sensitive to small differences, others not so much.

Geometry: Geometry can be tweeked by raising/lowering the swing arm and/or forks. Most bikes can achieve neutral handling with a bit of effort in this area.

The bike you're used to: Big heavy well designed bikes like an ST or Concours generally have an amazingly neutral feel in corners. My old C10 was the most stable bike once in a corner of any I've ever owned if not being pushed past it's limits.

It might be something "fixable" causing the feel that you didn't like. On the other hand... maybe not. Most of us have probably had a bike we've desired for a long time and when we actually rode one our opinion changed. To date mine are an ST1300 & a Honda 954. I thought for sure I was going to buy both those bikes, but a test ride threw cold water on my desire to own either one.

Probably related to the toasted tires and the 30psi front inflation.


I've found that different brands/models of tire can really have a huge impact on a bike's feel.

I've owned one of my Guzzis 18-years and have had a bunch of different tires on it. Some make it feel like a truck and require lots of effort at the bars to turn. Other tires make the bike want to fall into turns.

Right now, it's wearing the Bridgestone T30 and is as neutral as it's ever been. The only other tire that felt this good was the BT-014.

Metzeler Z4 and Avon AV45/46 made it handle like a truck.

Many bikes don't handle the same at parking lot speeds (i.e., 20 mph and below) as they do at higher speeds. Although my experience has been that the bike will fall into a turn at lower speeds rather than resisting the turn as you describe.

I would look at the tires. When I first bought my Ducati ST2 the handling was pretty weird because the front tire had the sides worn off and was triangulated, but the rear tire was a bit squared off. With new tires on it the handling was wonderful.

In general, if I test ride a bike and the handling feels weird to me, I go look at other bikes.

a little bit of google-foo and it seems that most folks run between 36-38 psi on the front and 38-40 on the rear. recommendation from the factory appear to be 42 (unconfirmed).

if you're really interested i would have the owner put new rubber on and as a condition of sale, confirmation the problem was solved through an acceptable 'see' trial (see what I did there?).

i've noticed similar differences in dynamic from one tire to another, as well as the pressures they can be inflated to. if I were a betting man, i would think that would solve it. that said, i've ridden a bike with shotty front suspension and that'll really screw things up as well. if the suspension is gone, that's a whorse of a different color.

I experienced the same thing with my Aprilia Dorsoduro when I first bought it. It turned out to be the tires.

They were properly inflated, not worn out, etc. They were the OEM tires with 3800 miles on them.

When I switched to Pirelli tires, that feeling almost entirely disappeared. When I switched again to Continentals, the neutral steering was achieved.

Y'all make some great points, Gentlemen (using the term loosely...)

Tires were, of course, my first thought as well. They were OEM-spec Bridgestones and I knew they were toast, but their appearance wasn't all that bad, profile-wise -- at least not enough to account for (in my mind) the drastic handling symptoms. We're talking pretty alarming.

Before the ride, I turned the bars slowly lock-to-lock; I detected no notchiness in the steering head bearings. I don't think the seller's a squid/wheelie-prone rider, either, so I don't suspect any hidden suspension/fork damage.

So tires it is.....
I'm partial to Michelin PR4's, if only for their wet grip. They are "ok feeling" on my ST1100; but for my use, their advantage in the wet outweighs the slight handling advantages of other tires. Pricey for BlackBird sizing at over $500 a set, though!

Thanks for the insight & opinions, Fellas.

Your question as to whether some bikes turn by pulling on the inside bar leads me to believe the tires on that bike are the least of your worries.

Reading comprehension fail on your part...... that's not what he said.

I had the predecessor to the XX, which was the original CBR1000. It was extremely sensitive to front tire wear. Due to the weight and high speeds it was capable of, I found it easy to essentially ruin a front tire in 1000-1500 miles. It would go from neutral to handling like a truck. Later I had a VFR750 which would easily go 6-8000 miles on a front with little change to handling. A 91 K100RS that filled the gap between Hondas was a little better than the CBR, but at 3-4k miles you were beginning to look forward to the day you could justify replacing a tire with decent tread in the center but was toast otherwise.

My CBR and a later ST1100 were both tough on wheel bearings too, and when they get bad the handling gets weird.

I rode a '95 Kawasaki GPZ1100E for many 10s of thousands of miles. It was a beast at slow speeds--under 20-25 MPH--but was easy to ride fast and very stable at speeds, including highly illegal speeds. It liked to take a set in corners with a lot of body english from the rider! Also was a bike that was very sensitive to both tire design, inflation pressure, and wear pattern. I've never ridden a Blackbird, but would assume the two bikes would be very similar in specs. They're both fairly heavy, at about +/- 540#, with locomotive-like torque and great brakes, so tires shred in a big hurry. I was usually looking for a new set at about 2500-3000 miles.

"And do some bikes display the opposite characteristic....in other words, the rider pulls on the inside bar to maintain arc?"
That question? Read it more carefully. "Turning" is not the same as "maintaining an arc", especially in this context.

The intent of exploring the opposite of what I experienced while maintaining an arc (again, NOT initiating a turn) was an attempt to bracket a range of handling anomalies, akin to oversteer vs. understeer and the neutral handling that theoretically lies within.

I understand countersteering. I don't, however, understand what forces or bike characteristics that necessitate such a high level of pressure at the bars while established in said turn.

Worn tires is the consensus, but what -- specifically -- is causing the force that I was having to counter? Is it a "disagreement" in the contact patch orientations while leaned, like a wide-rear-tired chopper pushing its narrow front? The contact patches in that case are only aligned when traveling straight ahead, but the rear's patch moves significantly inward (toward the center of the arc) once countersteered into a curve....
Or maybe it's the worn profiles themselves? If the rear is "oversquared" from too much freeway droning, as ScottRNelson asserts above (thanks, Scott), does heeling over onto the rounder part somehow make the motorcycle want to stand up?
Or maybe the "transition" portion of the rear (where the squared off center butts up against the rounder, original cross-section) is providing a comparatively unstable contact patch, exacerbated by the underinflation?
Or maybe it's not tires at all, but instead rake and/or trail?
Or something else altogether that I'm not smart enough to consider?



So instead of pointing out what you think "the least of my worries" are, perhaps you can explain the driving forces behind what I described during the test ride?


I'm all ears.

I test rode two fz6s the other day an 07 and 09. I liked the colour of the 07 better and it had less kms. But it just didn't handle right. It pulled to the left when you took your hands off the bars. The tyres were right because I stopped and checked them. When I got back I noticed some crash damage.

The 09 was a totally different bike. I ended up buying it.

It was interesting riding two bikes that should be the same that just simply weren't.

All else being equal (and it never is) I have found that a squared off rear tire plays the largest part in causing that sensation. New tires will normally fix it.

Other factors. Some bikes are more prone to it. My r1100S is very prone to it. As soon as the rear starts to square off I can feel the bike trying to stand up. My sv650 is the opposite. It is very neutral no matter what the rear looks like. Different brands of tires have different profiles. Some will make the bike stand up. Others will actually make the bike try to drop further into the turn. Your body position makes a difference. You can mask tendencies by hanging off further or less.

Once you have settled on a bike / tire / body position combination you can make geometry changes if your steering isn't neutral in turns. The best place to check it is on a 270 degree on / off ramp. Get into the turn and slowly relax your grip on the bars. Th bike should continue to track. If the bike tries to stand up, loosen the triple clamps and lower the front end 5 mm. If it tries to tuck, raise the front end. A 5 mm adjustment is significant. I would not go further than 10mm. That is a huge change.

You might look and see if the owner has gone +1 or +2 with the rear tire size. That would increase the steering effort. It should have a 180/55-17. If the owner has put on a 190 or 200 section rear tire, it would add to the evidence that what you're experiencing is a tire problem.

He is being an ass.

He is misreading "inside bar" as "inside of the bar" not "Bar on the inside of the turn."

Ok. Forgive my facetiousness.

However, what you've described as pulling on the inside bar is the opposite of countersteering (which you know). It does not matter whether you are initiating the turn or mid turn, you will never to my knowledge pull on the inside bar to maintain your arc. You would need to be in an extreme state of oversteer, in which case you would be initiating opposite lock in order to effectively change/alter your direction of travel, not maintain the arc.

Read the op again.

The op is describing having to maintain pressure on the inside bar to maintain the arc once in a turn, in other words (as I read it) the bike is trying to stand up. He said he was having to push the inside bar and maintain counter-steering pressure, not pull on it.

Tires are certainly a prime suspect. I wouldn't refuse to buy a bike that I wanted because of this issue but I would surely use it as a negotiating point on price. As I and others mentioned some bikes are more sensitive to tire wear than others. That's a valid consideration when making a purchase because it is something the owner will live with everytime tires the tires on the bike start to go off a bit.

It's a heavy, fast sporty bike on old, worn, underinflated tires and you're wondering why the handling was a little wonky? :huh

Rescue the thing cheap, spoon on some new tires, and enjoy. Order extras -- as noted above, these things absolutely EAT front tires and they're well-known to be sensitive to tire condition.

In other words, when you smell horse shit, don't start looking around for unicorns. This is not a difficult problem to understand or solve.

As I said in my original inquiry:
"...it was hard for me to imagine that new tires, properly inflated, could overcome that level of required bar pressure. But maybe they could?"

So I took the tire condition well into account. The bike exhibited a very specific characteristic, which I described as best I could. "A little wonky" was not part of that description.


Nonetheless, it's reassuring to know the problem is traceable and not difficult to solve. I've ridden more than my fair share of worn tires over the years, but never experienced anything like I did on that test ride. That's why I came to the collective for their insight, the vast majority of which is very helpful.