Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki & Kawasaki - Listen Up, Please...

[Albie]

Originally Posted by joexr

I think the arguement was that the European bikes arent restricted the same as the Japanese bikes according to people who dont actually know anything about motorcycles. Like I always say. Good credit does not make you a motorcyclist.

Just pointing out the fact it's a false argument for the people who don't actually know what they are trying to argue. Posting on a motorcycle forum doesn't make one a motorcyclist.

[joexr]

Originally Posted by Albie

Just pointing out the fact it's a false argument for the people who don't actually know what they are trying to argue. Posting on a motorcycle forum doesn't make one a motorcyclist.

I was ageeing with you , not busting your balls. And I agree heartily with the last part above.

[montesa_vr]

Originally Posted by Albie

[On] my 2007 EXC I had to cut the internal plumbing in the exhaust, remove the EPA plumbing, seriously rejet the bike, and re-gear the bike 2 down in the front and 5 up on the back. My 2008 690 was very much in line EPA wise. So all this talk about EPA exceptions is a bunch of bullshit.

You might be right Albie. I'm just guessing. The high gearing and lean jetting on the early EXC models were definitely done for the EPA. And I've never thought any kind of exception applied to the 690 or other models besides the EXC series. And Grreatdog makes a good point about the difference in culture. Maybe KTM met the letter of the law with the crude shortcuts of the gearing and jetting. Unless somebody from the EPA or KTM wants to enlighten us, we'll never know the details.

[mtntrails]

Originally Posted by montesa_vr

That is actual text from an actual EPA document, but it is a nine-year old document, it is not the only EPA document, and the rules applying to KTM may not be in writing, for all we know. Look at the octopus on the side of the XR650L and the FI and catalytic converter on the WR250R, and then look at a KTM EXC from 2008 and tell me they're playing by the same rules. I say no.

It could be as simple as KTM being granted an exception because they convinced the EPA that reduced emissions were on the way. I say enjoy it while you can.

The 49 State WR250R passes without a catalytic converter. The small displacement, secondary air pump and FI get it done for EPA. The CA models have a charcoal canister that the 49 State ones do not - maybe these require a catalytic converter (?).

In the case of KTM, I can't imagine that they fall under the EPA's small manufacturer exception.

[Albie]

Originally Posted by mtntrails

The 49 State WR250R passes without a catalytic converter. The small displacement, secondary air pump and FI get it done for EPA. The CA models have a charcoal canister that the 49 State ones do not - maybe these require a catalytic converter (?).

In the case of KTM, I can't imagine that they fall under the EPA's small manufacturer exception.

I see no evidence that they are getting to skate on any EPA standards.

[mtntrails]

Originally Posted by montesa_vr

You might be right Albie. I'm just guessing. The high gearing and lean jetting on the early EXC models were definitely done for the EPA. And I've never thought any kind of exception applied to the 690 or other models besides the EXC series. And Grreatdog makes a good point about the difference in culture. Maybe KTM met the letter of the law with the crude shortcuts of the gearing and jetting. Unless somebody from the EPA or KTM wants to enlighten us, we'll never know the details.

"Crude" is a spot-on description. It's not just KTM - Ducatis, Guzzis, Huskys - same deal. The goofy gearing, SAS and charcoal canister are exclusive to US models to meet EPA noise and emissions requirements.

[mtntrails]

I do think that the big 4 generally do a better job of engineering strict emissions and noise standards in to their bikes right from the get-go than the euro manufacturers. Meeting EPA standards seems more like an afterthought - at least in my experiences with newer KTMs & Ducs.

[Grreatdog]

I definitely agree with that. I have always suspected that KTM has a different view of warranty work than the Big Four. Which is in turn probably based on experience. The Big Four know they are going to sell to a lot n00bs that are going to want everything fixed. Anybody remember the n00b posting here about the paint rubbing off the footpeg on his new CRF250L? He wanted it repainted under warranty.

But people that are paying the higher costs for a Euro dual sport and ride what is generally a more user intensive bike generally have been around the block a time or two. I suspect KTM knows they are not going to see many warranty claims for any of the emissions stuff. Especially since it is mostly going to be in a box garage in the garage. So, as said, they tack it on in a fashion good enough to pass certification.

At least KTM finally stopped putting turn signal and lights on the same way. The Baja Designs kit on my MXC is actually better stuff than the oem lights and handlebar switches on my 640.

[mtntrails]

My '08 690 SMC had the DOT certified left rear turn signal mounted directly behind the very hot catalyzed exhaust stream! It was about the dumbest thing I'd ever seen.

[mtntrails]

There were a couple of posts yesterday relating to the CCM 450 Adventure, and it got me to thinking about this thread. Here we are nearly 3 months from the last post and there is no news or even rumors from the "big four" about a modern, mid-size dualsport from any of them. It sounds like KTM is developing a dualsport or adventure iteration of the 390 Duke - kinda excited about that.

On the hopes / assumption that the "big four" are paying attention to their customer base as they should be, maybe it's time to continue this thread and others like it to let them know what we want.

[acesandeights]

Bring out an otherwise unmodified DR650 with USD suspension?

[n1tr0]

Originally Posted by acesandeights

Bring out an otherwise unmodified DR650 with USD suspension?

Modern suspension on it would be nice, but they could stand to update the bars, plastics, lighting, and some wide foot pegs like every other manufacturer has done.

Thanks for waking up the thread w/ the CCM 450 post, I hadn't been paying any attention to the forum since the weather got decent. Here's to hoping it shows up in the US with a trim weight, DRZ-like service intervals, and European 450cc output numbers !

[acesandeights]

The thing a lot of people appreciate is it doesn't have nice anything, so it's a blank canvas that anyone can make their own. If it had nicer bars I wouldn't have replaced them as quickly for something that fit me better. I'd probably want to replace most of the stuff I have on my DR on any other bike I bought, for proper ergos, proper damping, etc. I would appreciate the wider pegs found on some other bikes, but even then, with stiff MX boots I don't notice the pegs that much anyway, even standing. The only thing *I* think is a universal complaint is the suspension. Not that Race Tech and some other companies don't address that too pretty well. I guess it'd be cool if they came out with a DR650 with bold new graphics...and USD suspension

[Milosh]

People keep asking why Yamaha hasn't brought the Tenere to the US. Its right there in those numbers -- The Tenere can't compete with the KLR on price and Yamaha doesn't believe people will pay thousands of dollars extra for a motorcycle that is not significantly lighter or more powerful.

Like the WR250r over the CRF250L?

[Gryphon12]

Originally Posted by Milosh

Like the WR250r over the CRF250L?

No, wrong example. The Tenere 660 is built in Italy, so the pricing is Italy vs. Japan (different labor & parts), not Japan vs. Japan (same labor with different parts). The US price of the Tenere 660 is almost $10K, at which point most people will go KTM 690.