"Idle no More" concerns

Steve G. · Jan 6, 2013

At the risk of this thread getting buried in the usual gun/us politics threads in the 'basement', I'll start this particular thread In 'Canada' as it's unique to Canada. Moderators, feel free to move it to the basement if you so choose.

I've got particular concerns about this movement. Not just the first nations regular citizens deplorable plight, and the band leaders' grand luxurious living on taxpayers bottomless spending. But I've got concerns that this movement is something that the 'occupy' movement can now hang it's hat on, with all of their various bitches/rants/demands. I am worried about this one.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/01/20130103-200333.html

Spaggy · Jan 7, 2013

I don't have all the answers, but I do think that the first nations have done more harm to themselves in recent years than anything done to them. You're right about the band leaders getting rich while the average resident goes without.
What happened to them when the europeans first came here was deplorable, but I didn't do it and neither did my ancestors. They came from Norway 3 generations ago and weren't involved in any genocide. I'm not responsible!
Like I said, I don't have any deep answers. If it were me, I'd assimilate a little more. They can't get back at everyone else by hurting themselves.

nick949eldo · Jan 7, 2013

Steve G. said: ↑

At the risk of this thread getting buried in the usual gun/us politics threads in the 'basement', I'll start this particular thread In 'Canada' as it's unique to Canada. Moderators, feel free to move it to the basement if you so choose.

I've got particular concerns about this movement. Not just the first nations regular citizens deplorable plight, and the band leaders' grand luxurious living on taxpayers bottomless spending. But I've got concerns that this movement is something that the 'occupy' movement can now hang it's hat on, with all of their various bitches/rants/demands. I am worried about this one.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/01/20130103-200333.html
Click to expand...

You rely on SUN news for your information - really! Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve? The annual family revenue of Ms. Spence is nobodies business except their own. And charging an $850 per day consulting fee doesn't mean you get to charge that every day - believe me, I know!.

i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick

250senuf · Jan 7, 2013

nick949eldo said: ↑

Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve?
Click to expand...

warning rant ahead:

I think we have a big problem off reserve too, in that we have way too many overpaid, unaccountable, underworked bureaucats* in this country telling us what do to. They are our employees. Their pay should just as intangible as what they produce. What do they do?

*misspelling of bureaucrats intentional. Bureaucat = fat cat that does nothing but eat and purr contentedly.

Rant off.

Winter seems long already and it's barely started

baloneyskin daddy · Jan 7, 2013

You should move to the U.S., Then you'll appreciate your government.

GreatWhiteNorth · Jan 7, 2013

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/01/20130107-102144.html

Not sure if Sun News skews the numbers or not, or puts an anti-aboriginal slant on things, but the numbers are damning regardless:

- 20+ councillors and 3 chiefs on the payroll for a community of approx 2500 (Edit - 1500?) people!?
- Fed gov't gives them over $17 million/year, and millions unnaccounted for;
- they are living in squalour, yet invest millions in the stock market!?

It's clear that money is getting siphoned off... and not just a little. The release of details today of the audit carried out on this band is outright damning - I hope the RCMP launch a criminal investigation.

I agree things need to change on Reserves, and the Indian Act needs changing.. but band administrations must be held accountable and have full transparency - this what's expected of other Canadians.

Edit: I should add, what I find particularly galling about the Attawapiskat band is that they declared an emergency, basically holding out their hands for more money... and then refused federal oversight!

toddiscdn · Jan 7, 2013

nick949eldo said: ↑

Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve?
Click to expand...

Im not really interested in wading into this, but as a comparison, councilors in as close to similar sized towns, villages etc. (nothing quite that small here that hasnt been amalgamated) get maybe a few hundred to $1000 tops travel allowance or the like and no salary...not sure how it compares.

GP640 · Jan 7, 2013

I think the money issue is not really part of what Idle No More is about.
More like the right trying to discredit the cause. Idle No More is not directly linked to Chief Spence.
The point I totally side with is the BS that has been included in the "budget".
Our waters need protection and our resources need managing. This isn't just a First Nations issue.
The Red Deer River saw an oil pipeline rupture this past summer.Current regulations required an "extensive" clean up.
If the Federal gov't guts its protection
legislation, my city and towns hundreds of km East of me will not have drinking water. What then?
Sure, the economy runs on oil, but water is life (at the risk of being granola) and Stevie and his buddies
don't seem to care.

Maybe if Steve's Muskoka cottage had an oil spill in front of it he'd change his tune.

aquadog · Jan 7, 2013

The audit for Attawapiskat is certainly not favourable. I suspect that, some years hence, we'll have more factual reports and less media slanted views on this story, but nobody will read the "real story".

As a comparison, you probably remember the Kashechewan water quality disaster of 2005. This was a true crisis, with people becoming quite sick from the potable water. The media billed it (and never made corrections) as incompetence on the part of bumbling government bureaucrats who had the water treatment plant constructed downstream of the sewage treatment plant, on the same creek, and failed to maintain it. The basic story was "evil bureaucrats screw a First Nation". Millions in temporary relocation costs.

The facts? As revealed by a forensic engineering report: Kashechewan had constructed for it new water and sewage treatment plants. Both were (and are) to the same standards common everywhere in Ontario. The plants were on separate creeks, but it was recognized that under certain tidal conditions, there was a remote chance of water backing up overland from one creek to another due to the flat terrain. The band wanted the jobs of operating both plants. Due to the operation of the plants, both had multiple failures of various types, including jury-rigged cross connections between raw and treated water, incorrect chemical use, etc. etc. Sewage plant had 2 of 3 lift stations in failure and the back flow preventer was broken.

Crowning touch, however, was when the "white guys" warned the band to break up the beaver dams that were obstructing the already problematic sewage outfall. They didn't. And that's how effluent ended up crossing overland to the water treatment plant, which, even then, could have processed the water, if it had been working as designed.

In the Yukon we have most land claims settled, and the bands that did so are doing great. The 3 that aren't are whining a lot and trying to blackmail other governments for more money.

I think the Idle No More movement is great, if it brings both sides and some facts into the open, instead of slanted media reports. Not that many FN leaders seem onside with Idle, per:

Chief Gottfriedson, Kamloops: "The Tk'emlups have moved past the days of protest and have taken necessary next steps to see that issues are properly addressed. ..Our membership has given it leadership clear direction to pursue solutions as opposed to conflict. ...Our view was that we were never idle in the first place and our ultimate agenda...is to find solutions and produce results. "

And: National Post -Saturday Jan. 5th interviews with Manny Jules, former Chief of the Kamloops Indian Band, & Ernie Crey of the Sto;lo Tribal Council (B.C.) on the "Idle" movement.

M. Jules: 'the (Idle) complaints do not resonate with him "..I see these recent changes as a practical approach to making it easier for First Nations to develop an economy. What the government is trying to do is legislate us back into the economy." Jules is Chairman of the federal First Nations Tax Commission. "I believe Harper believes that First Nations have to be part of the Federation and part of the economy" Jules & Crey say the Idle movement lacks teeth and specificity. Crey "What they're after is so vague, - so up in the clouds- that nobody knows what they want. " He said Idle hasn't handed Harper any entry points to even begin with.

Some FN want to get on with life, be successful, just like everybody else. And they are.

Since people like Chief Spence gets paid with public taxpayer dollars, I believe it actually is our business to have accountability - other governments have to do so. I live in the north and have a pretty good idea of what it costs, and most bands get enough to do proper capital and operations. What they don't have is the experience, training or ability - it may not be so much graft, as ineptitude. Don't discount the FN ability to play politics, they've been doing so for as long as anybody, and some of it is pretty "clannish" - some families benefit, some don't.

Settle land claims fairly and get on with it - although settling doesn't seem to mean giving up even more fed funding it seems...but it's better than the situation now in a lot of Canada.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

DaveBall · Jan 7, 2013

Isn't it about time the aboriginals took responsibility for their own future? I for one, am fed up of having to constantly pay taxes that go to them to squander. It is time the hand-outs stopped for all. It does not matter what ethnic group you belong to, if you are constantly given things without having to work for it, you will never appreciate it.

Sure, they have had it bad for a long time, but, there are numerous Indian Bands that have taken their own future into their own hands. They have realized that the only way to get a better life for themselves now and for future generations, is to work for it.

RumRunner · Jan 7, 2013

It will be very interesting to see where this movement goes. From what I understand, it is very much a grass roots movement and not one condoned by the AFN. It does have the potential to be quite disruptive for many Canadians, and if it does, they will loose a large portion of the public's support. A perfect example would be Bill115 here in Ontario. Most private sector workers could give a flying hoot that a terrible president was set in abolishing workers rights. Joe public is only concerned that they might be inconvenienced for a day.

If the radical factions within the Native community get up in "arm's" over this movement, we could see violence. I rather doubt that we have learned anything since Ipperwash, Caledonia, Oka or Gustafsen.

Fact is, the Harper Government has ramrodded through two Omnibus Bills and the most recent one affects Native Sovereignty in a big way. While I think the PM is truly sensitive to native issues, he is much too pragmatic to allow any concerned group stonewall what he sees as economic progress vital to our country. Sometimes the pendulum of politics swings too far to one side and this might be the lighting rod.

Another thought, we live in VERY different times these days. While I do not worry about black opps over my roof, fact is that today's feds are very active in quelling dissident groups before they get traction. Case in point:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/05/fbi-occupy-wall-street_n_2410783.html

DW

GP640 · Jan 7, 2013

Sure there is a bunch wrong with how things are right now but will the crap embedded (U.S. style) in the budget
make it better for anyone?
I am starting to resent the lack of democracy.

Ooops, Rummy was quicker and more eloquent.

Steve G. · Jan 7, 2013

nick949eldo said: ↑

You rely on SUN news for your information - really! Should administrators of Bands expect to earn any less than their counterparts off-reserve? The annual family revenue of Ms. Spence is nobodies business except their own. And charging an $850 per day consulting fee doesn't mean you get to charge that every day - believe me, I know!.

i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick
Click to expand...

Facts are facts man.

Look, I don't think anyone is showing willfull ignorance of conditions. I was born in the Alert Bay 'big house',,,,I regularly work on reservations to this day repairing homes paid for by taxpayers, which were willfully damaged 'just because they felt like it'. I see bedrooms converted to latrines with 2 feet on human crap, yet there's a latrine down the hall. Oh yeah, I see!!!!

But this is about transperancy of funding. You say that funding they get is non of anyones' business. I find this thought absolutley bizzare! We demand financial transparency to our tax paying banks, ALL private companies listed on any stock exchange, our municipal, provincial, and federal governments. Yet, you say first nation funding is none of our business??? How dare you contribute, and justify this gong show of a situation to continue. Is it any wonder that every federal govt. in the last 40 yrs has NOT opened the books to yearly first nations spending [estimated at 10,000,000,000$ a year,,but we'll never really know] . Are you sure you just mis-printed your response?? Please tell me you were just kidding,,,

Moving Pictures · Jan 10, 2013

This ain't about the chiefs, and never was. Idlenomore is the grass roots native saying "fuck it all" to both their leaders, and ours.

the kaz · Jan 10, 2013

I think we should pay all natives $500 000 each and then thats IT ..... NO MORE!!!!! Plus by accepting the ONE TIME payment they become normal Canadian citizens who pay taxes buy fishing licences etc .....

I am pretty tired of people in modern society blameing someone else for their own problems. In my line of work we have many native bands as customers. Most of them are great to work with and are extremely well managed. The funny thing is the Native bands we work with dont seem to be represented in the current affairs. Maybe someone forgot to tell these other native bands that they are suppossed to be upset and screaming at the goverment ?

AKDuc · Jan 11, 2013

GP640 said: ↑

I think the money issue is not really part of what Idle No More is about.
More like the right trying to discredit the cause. Idle No More is not directly linked to Chief Spence.
The point I totally side with is the BS that has been included in the "budget".
Our waters need protection and our resources need managing. This isn't just a First Nations issue.
The Red Deer River saw an oil pipeline rupture this past summer.Current regulations required an "extensive" clean up.
If the Federal gov't guts its protection legislation, my city and towns hundreds of km East of me will not have drinking water. What then?
Sure, the economy runs on oil, but water is life (at the risk of being granola) and Stevie and his buddies don't seem to care.
Click to expand...

The above is what we've heard Idle No More is mainly about with some aboriginal rights, sovereignty, and solidarity thrown in.

I'll be at the rally in downtown Anchorage tomorrow at high noon. My ancestors on my dad's side are 1st Nations Tsimshean out of BC.

Wish me luck. Mark H.

G-Mac · Jan 11, 2013

the kaz said: ↑

I think we should pay all natives $500 000 each and then thats IT ..... NO MORE!!!!! Plus by accepting the ONE TIME payment they become normal Canadian citizens who pay taxes buy fishing licences etc .....

I am pretty tired of people in modern society blameing someone else for their own problems. In my line of work we have many native bands as customers. Most of them are great to work with and are extremely well managed. The funny thing is the Native bands we work with dont seem to be represented in the current affairs. Maybe someone forgot to tell these other native bands that they are suppossed to be upset and screaming at the goverment ?
Click to expand...

My two cents is, When will people (That's ALL of us living in this great country) take responsibility for our selfs. Seriously. It's the old saying teach a man to fish..........If we keep throwing money what the F@$k would you do. We are all inherently lazy so.........
500k is a little much but the direction is what I would call a good start.
The original sentiment Take responsiblity for your self, that goes for the lazy people on welfare ( not directed at the ones that are truly in need) I'm sick and F@$king tired of paying for the Canadians and new to Canada people that abuse the system, and yes I have extended family members (Slugs) that fall into this category one that's to fat and lazy at 23 to do anything and his sister at 25 with three kids from three different dads!!! As well she has signed up for and got osap for school and never went.
Ok I'm done before I give myself an aneurism!

Mercenary · Jan 11, 2013

nick949eldo said: ↑

i have been to Attawapiskat many times. There is NO fancy living going on there. There is not a single dwelling that would look at home in a typical BC suburb (or anywhere else in suburban Canada).

Much of the money that flows through reserves such as Attawapiskat goes in air fares ($1100+ round trip), food costs (typically 3-5 times what it is in the south) and the difficulties of maintaining even the most basic services in a remote location.

Whining about First Nations communities and individuals getting rich from government handouts just betrays woeful ignorance of the real conditions. .

Nick
Click to expand...

So why in the HELL would you want to live up there to begin with? I've seen my fair share of reserves around BC and elsewhere and I wouldn't ever want to live in such conditions. Heck..even the ones that are close to major centers all seem to be shit holes.....

Before anyone goes off about me being racist or any crap like that....I'm part native so don't even go there....

mayday · Jan 11, 2013

Some interesting reading - no real answers, but fairly illuminating

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-dream-palace-built-on-gas-and-gold-wont-solve-aboriginal-poverty/article7158684/

JayDee24ca · Jan 11, 2013

mayday said: ↑

Some interesting reading - no real answers, but fairly illuminating

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-dream-palace-built-on-gas-and-gold-wont-solve-aboriginal-poverty/article7158684/
Click to expand...

Excellant editorial. Well done. Agree with all of it.
JD

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