An Appeal from Giant Loop

Dear Friends, Customers & Fellow ADV Ridets: We need your help. If you run across cheap, copycat bags that look like Giant Loop designs but do not have our name on them, please do not support the people stealing our hard work and innovations. If you see anyone promoting these products in forums, please contact the moderators and request that they be banished from our online community. If you see riders using these imitations, please let them know they are supporting leaches who lack original ideas of their own. If you see them in your local shop, let the owners know that they are supporting parasites. We think our customers are the best in the world, and since we began this adventure just three years ago, everyday we have been grateful for your support. Thanks for riding Giant Loop, Harold, Dave, Paul & Dustin

If there is something particularly innovative about your product, get a patent and protect the idea; otherwise welcome to the free market.Compete on quality, compete on service, compete on overall value, just compete. When you try to stifle legal competition, everyone loses.

Garp,

Post and your sig follow a consistent theme -- at least, you're honest.

Bokrijder

I believe in the free-market, competition and survival of the fittest. It's what makes capitalism what it is and that's what makes America what it is.

Here's a product, that just maybe could be confused with, or inspired by, the riding gear sold by BMW:



Of course, Teiz are a vendor, and I don't recall seeing them banned for selling a "knock-off". Is consistency too much to ask for? Is it okay when the big foreign corporation gets ripped off by the little guy, but not okay when a little guy knocks-off another little guy?

The only problem with that suggestion is that patent laws only gives you the right to sue. You go through the expense to patent an idea then someone steals your idea. You sue and may or may not win. If you do win there is no guarantee that you will be compensated for your patent fees and court costs. Who you sue may be a small company and they file bankruptcy and you get nothing. And there is no guaranty that you will not be suing someone else for the same thing.

I do agree that competition is a good thing. And when a company charges extremely high prices for a product just because of the new idea and the price is not related to the costs to produce the item. They are no friend to there customers. A similar product that has similar quality that can be bought for a fraction of the price leads to the question. Why is the original product so expensive? Does the price reflect a real investment in time and research? Or is it a matter of getting as much as possible before someone can make a comparable product for much less. If the product is over priced, it invites the competition. Is this a bad thing? You answer that question when you spend your hard earned cash.

This question came up when I started making centerstands. Since I am the only one in the world making my models. Should I charge as high a price as possible for the stands? (I was advised to do so) Or do I set a price that I think is fair and that I would pay to purchase the product. I did take into consideration that I would probably not have competition at the price I set due to the limited market. (I was told that this was not fair to other fabricators) But, I chose to set the price based on what I was willing to fabricate them for. If someone can make them better and less expensive. The customer wins in the end.

Mike

Mike,

Sounds like you have the right philosophy and I admire your approach, I hope the market supports you. You are right that the patent system isn't perfect, but if Giant Loop had protected their design, not only could they sue, but they would have every right to come here and complain about what would be unfair competition.

It sounds as though you have a good product and are willing to compete in an open market. For some reason Giant Loop doesn't seem to want to do the same. That's up to them, and it's up to their customers to support them or go elsewhere if they perceive the value proposition to be better.

I'm confused as to why AdvRider would ban someone for selling "knock-offs" but allow other vendors that blatantly knock-off BMW and Aerostich ideas.

I could see GL's complaint if there was some counterfeit GL baggage out there from some other source. If it is just something made by someone else that is very similar but without any GL logos or tags... that is just competition and if a good quality piece then hooray for them. The OP never stated if it was counterfeit GL stuff or not and that to me would be the difference.

I have to be honest and say I agree with this analysis. No patent means you cannot really complain when someone steals your idea.

So what does the original manufacturer do ? They need to differentiate themselves in some way - 'our product is the original and best', 'it is better because....', 'our customer service and delivery is better', 'here is a test comparing our product against the imitation' etc.

We are in the UK and we sell a tail bag from a major european supplier that is similar in appearance and concept to the Giant Loop product - but it is a fraction of the price. I am sure it is not as good nor will it be adequately robust if used hard offroad. I would not regard it as a competitor for GL's business - it is aimed at a very different customer who I am sure would take offence at being described as (unwittingly) supporting 'leaches'. I would be offended if a customer came in and accused us of supporting 'parasites'.

It's a big bad competitive retail environment out there - any manufacturer/importer/retailer has to fight their own corner as best they can and resorting to this sort of appeal simply does nothing to enhance the brand in my opinion.

This is another example of 'legal' and 'moral' not being in synch.

Yes, a patent gives you the right to sue. Priced lawyers lately? Tried to make a judgement stick against a foreign corporate entity? Good luck.

Spending $10K in order to have the legal high ground is beyond most small business owners means, and offers zero real-world protection.

HERE is a good thread about KLR650.com/Studebaker/MashOnline/Cyclops/Whoeverthehelltheyare, who steal every design in sight. Invent a new farkle for the KLR and you can count on them directly cloning it within a year. As an end result of these parasites, FEWER PEOPLE MARKET NEW PRODUCTS!

For fuck's sake- if you people don't have the character to shun vendors that you admit steal, at least have the self-interest to support those bringing new ideas to your hobby!

It's not stealing, it's the way free markets work. If it wasn't for what you define as "stealing" we would have one vendor of bar risers, one vendor of aluminum panniers, one vendor of computers with a point and click interface, one daily newspaper. Competition is taking somebody else's idea and improving it, and sometimes the improvement is making it cheaper.

Do you want to live in a world where we are all free to build a better mousetrap, or do you want a world where the is only one mousetrap vendor, who charges up to $439 per trap? Personally I think competition is good

What's happening isn't something new.....it's why there are tons of saddlebag and pannier manufacturers and not just the first company that came up with the idea. You can see it in practically EVERY product, why is this suprising? Wishing your product will never face competition and being able to reap maximum profits from maximum pricing is not realistic. Here is a short explanation of product life cycle that's taught in every 1st year econ/management class. http://www.netmba.com/marketing/product/lifecycle/ Note that the introduction of competition comes toward the end of the growth stage....maybe GL is there.

So if Hyundai starts making the "Moostang", a direct copy of Ford's product, but they reduce the price, you think that's OK? Or it's only as OK as Ford's legal department can afford?

I'm as free-market as they come (libertarian). If a product is an improvement on existing tech, or a new idea, I can't object. If it's yet another generic aluminum box, sure, no problem!

If it's a specific copy of a specific product, that's different. "cheap, copycat bags that look like Giant Loop designs but do not have our name on them" is pretty specific.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be competition- I'm saying that we shouldn't support direct cloning.

If Ford doesn't think the design is worth protecting, then Hyundai is free to make a copy. What do you think the Camaro was designed to do? Compete with the Mustang. Similar powertrain, similar size, 2 doors etc. Not a copy, but similar enough it appealed to the same audience.

Do you think Kawasaki is being innovative when it builds a "Harley clone"? Should BMW not be allowed to make the S1000RR because it looks like a Japanese sportbike? Should Triumph not build their new 1200 adventurer because BMW had the idea first?

It's not okay to make counterfeit goods, and to trade on somebody else's good name, but if someone can build a similar bag for less than, or more than, the $439 Giant Loop charges, and people think that the value offered is better, then so be it, that's how free markets work.

If this Polish vendor was branding their bag as a "Giant Loop' then ban away, if all they were doing was making a similar product for less, then more power to them and I don't see why they were banned. If Teiz Motorsports is allowed as a Vendor, it's pretty hypocritical to ban someone for selling "knock-offs"

TEIZ MOTORSPORT FOR $699:



BMW RALLYE 2 for $900

I feel for them and understand why they are not happy about someone else taking advantage of their bringing this idea market. They are running with the big dogs now. It's time to act like it.

Mike

I am in the market for a Giant Loop Coyote or Great Basin.
What are the details so that I will not be purchasing an inferior knock off?
Cheers

I purchased from a vendor that was listed on Giant Loops website. Or you can purchase directly from them. I love my Giant Loop Great Basin and am planning on purchasing the Mojave saddle bags, and a Fandango tank bag. They make an awesome superior product!

Us little guy manufactures have little to no chance aganist those who steal our ideas. I have a Patent Pending applicaton, trade name search, copyright, ect. up the wazoo. Over 50k invested over 4 years because I believe in what I make-just like every other guy doing this that I've ever met. We all believe in what we make and most don't make enough to pay for a major magazine ad. But my cover is the best made-period.

A major well known manufacture took one of my glove designs, and after all the "non-disclosure" agreements, exclusive prototype production runs for validation and testing, and all that-well, they liked it so much they took it-and like was mentioned above just out-spent me over a period of time and now sell my idea. Sour grapes? No, and maybe. Guess I should have known, but the system is aganist all us small time guys. Reason for the post? Not to have anyone feel sorry for me-but to say buy from the ones who made it. I'd go so far to say that if most folks spent 30 days with a small time aftermarket M/C product manufacture they'd say "you're crazy to do this!"