Amendment 64

Spoken like a true drug dealer.

You analogy to car sales is pathetic. A better analogy would be to compare buying a car from a dealer, to buying discount stolen cars from a chop shop. Do you really think people will choose to buy from criminals just to save a few $$?

Alcohol is far more damaging, but was left out of the CSA for political reasons. At the minimum, it should be listed as schedule 2, especially considering that the US government obtained a patent on the medical benefits 10 years ago. Under the reasoning of the CSA, alcohol should be listed as schedule 2, the same as morphine.

Wrong on all counts. Competition will reduce prices.

Ben, even at $400/ounce, marijuana is still cheaper (about half the price) than an equivalent buzz with micro brews, with much lower damage to the environment. In fact, I think growers should be able to sell carbon credits to further the cause.

I was a commercial brewer for 12 years. I figured I brewed about 1.5 million pints in that time. (lots of hangovers and drunk people because of me.) Homebrewing isn't really cheaper than buying quality beer, and costs way more when you figure in your time. People homebrew because they enjoy the process. That would be more a kin to growing your own.

Also see my above edit on prices of Med Marijuana.

I didn't say that weed is worse than morphine, I said it (weed) is currently a schedule I which makes it legally more prohibitive than a Schedule II. I'm not saying that I agree with the definitions in the Controlled Substances Act, I'm just pointing out that by current legal definition a Sched I drug has more legal ramifications than a Sched II drug such as morphine (Opiates).

And I agree, the drug laws are a complete mess. And we have given two branches of government, the FDA and the DEA waaaay too much power and control. And don't even get me started on the ATF and the IRS.

I don't think the idea is that the cartels get nicer...they're a drug cartel. The idea is that they won't have as much money to operate with (to buy guns, drug materials, pay 'employees', bride officials, etc.)...and therefore to be violent with. A well-funded militant force can afford to be more violent than a not-as-well-funded militant force, that is obvious.


If the regulatory system even gets put into place, commercial sales won't begin until 2013. Regardless, TheDude's pricing is misinformed. Right now with MMJ, top-notch buds are cheaper at dispensaries than they use to be on the black market. The black market has had to adjust to this huge competitive force...and from what I've seen, the black market has had to cut prices to the extreme and still doesn't even attempt to compete on quality because it has no chance against legitimate businesses. Basically, the average toker has two options: get top-of-the-world quality buds from a dispensary (somehow), or get twice as much quantity but not even half the quality from the black market for the same price ["ditch weed", bulk product that is more or less useless for most tokers, has all but disappeared]. The vast majority of the tokers I know go with the first choice, even people with very little cash to spend. Yes, I am admitting the MMJ serves many tokers who do not have their MMJ license, but it isn't the dispensaries doing it, it's people with licenses doing it for friends. What a crime, especially now that it's legal! I don't think TheDude's thought process about the black market competing with legal pot makes any sense. It's like saying a truly bad business (no matter how much money is tossed at it) can compete and overcome a good business. It's like saying the drug cartel could compete with the pharmacuetical industry if it chose to...and I'm sure he doesn't believe that's possible.

Spoken like a true criminal.

People have been buying weed from "criminals" for decades now. ADVers have been buying weed from other ADVers for at least a decade now. And I think there's pics to prove it.

You really think that just because a fancy pot store with nice chairs and some magazines to read opens up in the local strip mall they will spend the extra bucks to go shop there? I think most folks do not view their current pot "guy" as a "criminal". They view him as a friend. I think many of them will continue to "shop locally" and they will keep buying from that friend. And that friend, sans overhead, will always offer a better deal than the new store on the block.

Drug cartels hijack pharmaceutical shipments all the time and then sell the drug below cost all the time.
They can't competer with the pharma industry in terms of research and development, but they sure as hell compete when it comes to distribution.

PM coming your way

And let's say you're right and competition will reduce prices. The illegal guy will still be cheaper than the legal retailer.

My point in all this is simple: The new laws in Colorado and Washington will not eliminate the illegal sale of marijuana in either state. I would venture it will have no impact at all on illegal marijuana sale or use. The legal age in Colorado wil be 21. I'm betting the same 16 year olds that smoke illegally now will smoke illegally then. And the same friend that sells it to them now will sell it to them then. And if prices go up, the illegal guy will be able to undersell the retailer and if prices go down, the illegal guy will be able to undersell the retailer.

The black market can't compete at all with MMJ even, how will it compete with legal commercial sales? You can have your opinion, but I am telling you from boots on the ground that your opinion is just plain wrong. So many people's "friends" are getting out of the black market because there's no money to be made anymore with half-ass buds (compared to MMJ product) even with half-ass prices or quarter-ass prices. For the vast majority of tokers, quantity does not substitute for quality [this is because the negative effects are much higher when smoking more crap bud than when smoking less good bud; the less you have to smoke to get high, the better]...that means only top-notch MMJ buds are sought after (top-notch relative to the black market's standards). Thankfully these buds can be had for $40/8th or something like $200/ounce. Black market buds not even half the quality use to be sold at $300/ounce before MMJ, now that same bud doesn't even have buyers.

I was referring to a different hypothetical situation. To me, saying the black market can compete with the commercial marijuana market is similar to saying that if the drug cartels could manufacture their own pharma pills, then they could actually compete with big pharma on that basis. Generally speaking and in my opinion, there's little reason to believe an under-funded, ill-informed, and illegitimate business can compete with a similar business that is well-funded, informed, and legitimate. As Hellsickle noted, people aren't rushing to buy stolen cars from chop shops just because they're cheaper.

A similar analogy would be illegal moonshine. Maybe I hang with the wrong crowd, but when was the last time you had access to illegal booze (Shearboy excluded )? It was huge business during prohibition, but has virtually vanished since then. Bootleggers and gangs flourished. Many people were poisoned by home stills, just as many people can be poisoned by pesticides with uncontrolled grow operations. Many others are killed when they come across an illegal operation. Nobody is saying it will eliminate associated crime, but legalization is proven to reduce criminal activity and reduce health risks.

He is right, prices all across the board have already gone down due to MMJ (as I've said in my last few posts). Your venture is wrong, MMJ has had HUGE effects on the black market and there's very few reasons to suspect that full-scale commercial sales would reverse that trend. You are right about the 16 y/o...because no matter what, him smoking would be illegal because of his age. That being said, I can tell you right now that many a 16 y/o is already getting their buds from friends with MMJ licenses (meaning they are not buying off the regular black market anymore although buying from friends with med cards is in itself a sort of black market). Your speculation about what'll happen with the regular black market is wrong on pretty much every count, Dude, based on everything I've witnessed for myself and heard from everyone else, things that are already happening with MMJ affecting the black market. I am fairly immersed in the culture and know a thing or two. You're guessing from a keyboard.

Good points. Someone with high friends in low places is much more credible than the guy banging on his smart phone while waiting in a doctor's lobby.

I support large criminal penalties for those providing MJ to minors. Even larger than the penalties for providing alcohol to minors. Numerous studies have shown adverse effects of heavy use on developing brains.

Bothof my sons are 21 or older and both "partake".
I did a little survey ( a survey of 2) a few weeks back before deciding how to vote.
I asked my oldes son (who has his MMJ card) "where do you buy your weed?"
He said 'from a friend of mine at work" (Notice he said "friend", not "criminal)

I asked the younger son "Where do you buy your weed?"
He said "From a buddy of mine up in Estes". (He also didn't call his freind/supplier a criminal)

I asked them both later on "Where will you buy your weed once it is legal in Colo?"

They both said "From my friend"
I asked why

They both said (And I'm paraphrasing) "He always has good stuff, fair prices and I like hanging out with the guy"

When I asked them if they had any problem with buying it "illegally" when a legal option will be available (and keep in mind these are kids who haven't purchased a single song legally in years, they just steal what they want off the internet), one said "No. I'll be allowed to have an ounce or less on me at any time and no one is going to ask where I bought it. It's not like I have to have a receipt for it. The only thing I've ever been concerned about is getting busted while I have some on me. Now I don't have to worry about that. Less than an ounce and I'm good."

Then I asked if a retail store would appeal to them and they said "for pipes and paraphanalia probably, and if they're running some uber sale on some strain, but for the most part I'll just stick with my guy. It'll be cheaper and less hassle".

Again, that's a small sample of only two tokers and their two dealers, but they have no intent on changing their supplier. Even with a card, my oldest still buys from his co-worker buddy.

...but where is their pot coming from? It may be coming from a black market, so to speak, but that black market may simply be the backdoor of a dispensary or a supplier of a dispensary. The point is, I highly doubt the "friends" are getting it from a traditional black market source and definitely not one that can be traced back to organized crime and/or the cartels. Did you ask if their friends are associated with dispensaries? For all we know, the "friends" are working at dispensaries, bringing home some personal stash, and then selling some on the side. That is illegal, but it's a far cry from the traditional black market. That sort of thing is happening all over CO all the time and it has been for years now. The real black market can't compete with MMJ or MMJ's black market, period.

Wrong again.

I may not smoke as much as you do, or smoke it in front of minors, (remember what I said about pics?) or smoke on ADV rides but I am very familiar with "the culture" and have been around it quite a bit. I also understand economics a bit.

Went gun shopping recently. The model I want is $650 new retail plus tax. The same model is $550 used retail plus tax.
The 'private sector' is $450 to $500, no sales tax.


Same is true of cars (as I mentioned in a previous post).
If the same car can be had from a private party cheaper and without any dealer charges, why buy retail?

Retail pot stores will do fine. Some will make a profit, some will go out of business, competition will be good and they will attrack many new customers.
But illegal sales and drug cartels aren't going anywhere, and innocent Mexican mayors and their families will still be murdered.

Sorry Dude, I know first hand you are wrong in this case about legal vs illegal. When we had MMJ shops open in town (6 for a population of 2500, everyone is sick and hurting here, haha), the average price per ounce dropped by $100 and the quality stayed the same, but more choice varieties. The local black market basically dried up. We never dealt much with brick/ditch weed anyway, but the people who dealt before mostly did it to supply their habit. Now they can grow or purchase their own cheaper than before, so little motivation to do it under the table. We are down to 3 shops now I think, demand vs competition and costs of rents/keeping up with regulations etc...Unless the government forces so many regulations that the stores can't afford to keep it affordable, then I don't see the black market coming. Maybe other areas with more border ties will feel different. The cartels will just switch to muling more coke and it will be the early 80s all over again...that is where I still see south of the border action, but not on weed. Just my take on it from a ski bums perspective, so what do I know?

Musical interlude time

My all time favorite drug song/story from the infamous toker Todd Snider

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zhcQ6rWdjkw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Interesting perspective from your sons. The market may just be different over there, or maybe the stores are charging more than here? Maybe the situational is regional, because your view is valid for sure..either way, it's all good! My folks even voted for it, which blew me away..they were big DARE supporters when I was growing up, but now that I kind of am too, we can talk more openly about the realities of it..

Dude, I couldn't even find a black market source right now if I wanted to and I've been partaking since high school and still know all the people who use to "hook it up". None of them do anymore and most of them don't even talk to their old sources because the well dried up years ago shortly after MMJ came around and enough people got their cards.

"illegal sales and drug cartels aren't going anywhere"

I can believe that about the cartels because they are a diversified business that doesn't run off of one product or service. But you're just plain wrong about the traditional black market. "illegal sales" won't be going anywhere in a sense because people aren't going to follow the new laws to a T, no doubt. But people with illegal grow operations (the traditional black market you're referring to when you say "illegal sales") will not be able to compete with the combination of MMJ, commercial (legal) sales, and what I'd call the "new black market of pot" which are the backdoor deals of dispensaries and other deals violating the new laws not the old ones.

A study by a Mexican think-tank concluded that legalization will hurt the cartels (your "illegal sales").
http://www.insightcrime.org/news-analysis/study-legalization-cut-cartel-profits-by-30
What study have you done?

Mexican think tank








Just listen to Todd Snyder and chill.
He's good for the soul.