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Old 11-19-2005, 11:29 PM   #16
Loadedagain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill
I think the questions to ask are first, what style stabilizer do the PD and Baja racers use especially considering their gas weight. Second I would like to know for gravel road/forest service road riding what gives the most stable ride especially loaded heavy at the rear. Third do both styles respond the same to a "sudden" hit on the front wheel from a pothole, rock or a flat tire at speed. I dont think it is safe to say we know the answer for certain. Adventure riding is special. I was recently supplied with a "road " unit for my Adventure by Scott. It was ordered by Richard Wilson, the suspension guy at House of Horsepower. I am not saying this is the correct choice, I am saying my type of riding is a long way from the mx track. Sliding is not generally an issue. My road stabalizer works perfect on the ATV trails. They can get rough.
Bill in Tomahawk

interesting points bill. probably the best part of your post is the statement "I dont think it is safe to say we know the answer for certain". that is the way i felt when i compared both the street and off road dampers. i did have a chance to hold and compare both, but... i have an off road of my own. after this maybe a on road could be added to the r and d section just for shits and giggles. who knows. maybe i could learn something from this whole game.
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Old 11-20-2005, 01:36 AM   #17
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My current opinion is that the both way damping helps with a heavier bike. I have an emig 2way on my LC4, and a scotts 1way on my 300 EXC. Wish I could swap them to find out, but the mounts are incompatible.

My preference is to set the LC4 damping to where I can feel it, and the EXC damping to just under where it can be felt. If I don't have enough damping on the LC4 then it really bugs me when I run over soft surfaces. But you have to leave it free enough to squirm a bit, otherwise it tends to torque the whole bike rather than just the front wheel. Perhaps a 1way would prevent that, dunno.

On the EXC, it's so light that it doesn't matter so much with or without, other than the safety of deflections.

The two bikes are apples and oranges mainly because of their weight differences. Esp mine as I have luggage, and I'm evidently not too strong. With the LC4, leaning too far over in soft stuff is just about guaranteed to make me fall. It is the primary weakness in my riding ability and the areas I have to ride. So the damper on that bike is to keep unwanted direction turns to a minimum. On the EXC, I can correct the position without problems as it is much lighter, so the damping is just for handlebar hits and roots, rocks etc.

There is one issue which may be more relevant to 2way damping, though it applies to all damping. You should ensure that the fitment of the tower pin and the damper lever is good. If there is play, you will feel it when riding on the street, as oscillations, because turning the bars will amplify the play against the damping. What I did was to align the pieces properly so there is no swiveling, and then I spread some goop in the pin/lever interface. It lasts for a good time, and makes a lot of difference to keep the damping seamless with small direction changes.
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Old 11-20-2005, 08:12 AM   #18
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Done, new thread created.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Loadedagain
no. this conversation is about the different valving in different scotts dampers. mounting is not a consideration here.

we can discuss height and mounting elsewhere if you like. start a thread.
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Old 11-20-2005, 12:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loadedagain
interesting points bill. probably the best part of your post is the statement "I dont think it is safe to say we know the answer for certain". that is the way i felt when i compared both the street and off road dampers. i did have a chance to hold and compare both, but... i have an off road of my own. after this maybe a on road could be added to the r and d section just for shits and giggles. who knows. maybe i could learn something from this whole game.
Based on the information provided and the fact that even the manufacturer thinks there may be some "cross-over" between the two designs of damper... the possibility exists that a street damper might be more beneficial on certain types of adventure bikes, used in certain ways, than a dirt damper.

Would damping in both directions, in off-road technical terrain, with the wheel off-center be advantageous? That's doubtful, as you would be forcing the bars back to center... but I guess that would depend on the effort required to do that.
It seems that the dirt unit is designed to dampen deflection while the street unit is intended to dampen oscillation, or head shake.

I wonder what high speed desert and rallye racers use... or how many have even thought about it. On a high speed off-road racer, you would encounter both deflection and head shake. How about a GNCC bike? Do the KTM rallye bikes come equipped with the D or the S damper?

It would be interesting to have two identical bikes, with the two damper types installed, that you could ride repeatedly, back to back over the same course of varied terrain. Fast sideways dirt sweepers, nasty woops, slow rocky up & down trails, 90mph twisty two lane... all the places where a damper comes into play.

Ah well, just thinking out loud. Chances are, when I buy a damper, it will be a dirt unit… unless someone who rides the way I do, in the types of terrain I ride in, can convince me otherwise.

C
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Old 11-20-2005, 12:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
I wonder what high speed desert and rallye racers use... or how many have even thought about it. On a high speed off-road racer, you would encounter both deflection and head shake. How about a GNCC bike? Do the KTM rallye bikes come equipped with the D or the S damper?
one thing for sure they do beef the hell outa everything. check out the pin and fuel tank mounting. look at all that framewerk under the front of the tanks. nutz... these bikes are totally different animals aren't they...!



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Old 11-20-2005, 01:06 PM   #21
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Yep... gota do what you gota do to survive, and if KTM knows nothing else, they know how to build a bike that survives.

I sent a link of this thread to Jake at Scott's. Maybe he or someone there might decide to join up and chime in with explanations and opinions.
It would go along way towards clearing up what remaining unanswered questions we have, and certainly would put the folks at Scott's in an even more favorable light.

This is all very interesting to me in the sense that I've never had a rotary damper equipped bike and thought all dampers were pretty much the same. Learning lots of good stuff.
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Old 11-20-2005, 08:40 PM   #22
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Well, I have chosen to follow the path of least resistance, the path logic dictates to be correct, the path that those that have gone before seem to favor, the path that insures my wife will not speak to me for several days... and have ordered a shiny new Scott's "dirt" damper.
I have misgivings, but they will pass eventually.

Tomorrow I order up a Emig bolt-on pin.

Stenhouse, Scott's, Emig... what could possibly go wrong?

The wife didn't need anything special for Christmas anyway. (I'm doomed)
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Old 11-20-2005, 08:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
The wife didn't need anything special for Christmas anyway. (I'm doomed)
Yer, gonna be in BIG trouble mistah, lessin' ya sell that perty HK or sumpin'...
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Old 11-20-2005, 08:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by PASSMORE
Yer, gonna be in BIG trouble mistah, lessin' ya sell that perty HK or sumpin'...
I do believe that has been taken care of.

It's not that the wife isn't getting something nice... just about $400 less nice.
Loaded's SUB mount would feel sad if there wasn't a Scott's damper to keep it warm and safe... at least thats my rationalization and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 11-20-2005, 09:23 PM   #25
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Just went back and reread everything, then I dug out my Scott's owners manual and reread it. Despite what I may have been told or imagined I am not positive I know if my stabalizer is a offroad or a street unit.
When I received it I twisted on the lever arm, I could feel oil moving in both directions. I assumed it was damping in both directions but as Loaded says both units feel the same so my assumptions may be wrong.
In my manual it says,"Sweep controls located on each side are normally set at twelve o'clock on off road units and 6 o'clockon road bike units. Mine are at 12 o,clock. BTW that would mean the rally bike in loaded's picture is most likely a off road unit too. The sweep is set at 12 o'clock in the picture(as noted by the bevel position on the side screw).
I will be on the phone to Scotts in the morning to find out what unit I have. Whatever it is, it works.
Bill.
Just got off the phone with Scott. I have an off road stabilizer. My apologies for any confusion I may have caused with earlier comments which I have edited for accuracy. I have no experience with a Scotts on road stabalizer.
Thanks to Creeper, Loaded and others for helping me get this straight.
Bill.

bmwktmbill screwed with this post 11-21-2005 at 11:19 AM Reason: incorrect information
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Old 11-20-2005, 10:54 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
The wife didn't need anything special for Christmas anyway. (I'm doomed)
you get me in shit with yer mrs that's it! i will leave you for her in a heartbeat.
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Old 11-20-2005, 11:31 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loadedagain
you get me in shit with yer mrs that's it! i will leave you for her in a heartbeat.
I told her I had to get a damper... 'cause you said I had to have one.


She's not so thrilled with you right now.
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Old 11-20-2005, 11:59 PM   #28
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I used to race Yamaha TZ250's for a few years and I have had a Scotts dampers on most of them and a few GRP's. The thing with the "road" damper is that by damping both ways it cures/helps tank slappers. Tank slappers occurr when the bike gets outta shape then gains grip whipping the bars back and forth violently. Scotts dampers have saved my ass more than I would like to admit and speeds from 30 mph to over 100 mph.

I mistakingly bought a "dirt" damper once (I didnt know Scotts made a dirt damper at the time) and used it on my race bike. Long story short, I felt that the damper was different right away as it had less resistance when turned back to center. I figured, no big deal, just needs service I'll do it later. Lets just say that the "dirt" damper did nothing to help a huge tank slapper I had in a race and I ate some major cow pies.

The reason I am saying this is I believe, based on my experiance, that their is a difference. The "dirt" one actually made the tank slapper the most violent one I had ever had.

I run a "road" damper on my 640 and have no problem with it on single track, desert etc....maybe it makes a bigger difference on a road bike???
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Old 11-21-2005, 07:12 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
I told her I had to get a damper... 'cause you said I had to have one.
Tell her you are a Stenhouse Racing product researchologist
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Old 11-21-2005, 08:01 AM   #30
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Tell her you are a Stenhouse Racing product researchologist
Using you dweezles as an excuse for questionable stuff only works so many times.
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