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Old 11-11-2006, 12:28 PM   #16
cpmodem
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Location: masa yee yah tee 59 14' 9" N / 135 26' 42" W
Oddometer: 7,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gert
Thanks. I see it is a sealed unit. Cool!
Is the button above it for the meter - or how do you avoid battery drain since it is powered directly off the battery?
The button is for my aux fuel tank. The meter draws ma, so it is good for a couple of weeks without charging the battery. If it will be more than a few days (rare), I plug in the Battery Tender. I have a herd of motorcycles and all of them have Datels wired to show direct battery voltage at all times (ign on or off). This is so I can walk around and see the health of all of their batteries at a glance.

The 950 has the same battery that was in there from the factory 2 years ago. As you can see from the photo, it is still in good shape at 13 volts. It's been off the charger and not started for a week.
-cp
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 11-11-2006, 01:47 PM   #17
autorotate
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Question I'm going to figure this sucker out....

Ever wonder what the real amp draw was on your 950....No? Me either, and I didn't really care to know, but I'm sick of a dead battery every two days so here I go...determined to find my errant current draw.

Bike is stock electrically except for:
Garmin GPS Streetpilot III ran off ACC1
KTM heated grip kit ran off ACC2
KTM Aux light kit ran off ACC2
Euro Headlight
Euro Headlight switch

I made these measurement right off the fuse block, with the exception of the battery, which was made from the battery terminals.

Conditions:
KEY OFF
Battery tender just gave a green light and is unplugged from the beast.
Battery voltage=13.2 volts
ACC2= 0 amps
ACC1=GPS III off= 0 amps
ACC1=GPS III on= .17 amps
Clock= 0 amps
Fuel pump= 0 amps
Fan= 0 amps
Horn/Brakelight/Speedo= 0 amps
H/L Beam position= 0 amps
Ignition= 0 amps

Conditions:
KEY ON ENGINE OFF
Battery tender just gave a green light and is unplugged from the beast.
Drained fuel pressure.
Battery voltage=13.2 volts
ACC2= KTM Aux lights off/Grips off= 0 amps
ACC2= KTM Aux lights ON/Grips off= .16 amps
ACC2= KTM Aux lights off/Grips LOW= 1.97 amps
ACC2= KTM Aux lights off/Grips HIGH= 2.92 amps
ACC1=GPS III off= 0 amps
ACC1=GPS III on= .17 amps
Clock= 0 amps
Fuel pump= .97 peak amps (fuel pump ran for about 4 seconds)
Fan= 0 amps
Horn/Brakelight/Speedo= .21 amps
H/L Beam position= OFF= 0 amps
H/L Beam position= PARKING= 1.06 amps
H/L Beam position= LOW= 4.82 amps
H/L Beam position= HIGH= 8.23 amps
Ignition= 0 amps

Conditions:
KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING at IDLE
Battery tender just gave a green light and is unplugged from the beast.
Battery voltage=13.2 volts
Drained fuel pressure.
Only significant changes from Key on were:
Fuel pump= .97 peak amps (fuel pump ran for about 4 seconds)
Thence........
Fuel pump= .47 amps every 3-5 seconds
Fan=With fan operating= 3.61 amps

Stator measurements....
KEY OFF RESISTENCE MEASUREMENTS
pin1 to pin2= less than .1 ohms
pin2 to pin3= less than .1 ohms
pin1 to pin3= less than .1 ohms
KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING at IDLE
Stator Wire pin1= 0 vdc or 0 vac
Stator wire pin2= 0 vdc or 0 vac
Stator wire pin3= 0 vdc or 0 vac
KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING at 3K
Stator Wire pin1= .2-.3 vac 0 vdc
Stator wire pin2= .2-.3 vac 0 vdc
Stator wire pin3= .2-.3 vac 0 vdc
KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING at 5K
Stator Wire pin1= .5-.6 vac 0 vdc
Stator wire pin2= .5-.6 vac 0 vdc
Stator wire pin3= .5-.6 vac 0 vdc

Well at least I verified I don't have a errant current draw issue from one of the accessories or other elec component on the bike...it's a charging issue.

So what the hell next....how do you diagnose a stator/generator vs. a voltage rectifier/regulator now?

What should the output be on each stator winding? It should be VAC, but what output?

From what I can see the stator looks fine, or there would be an out of wack resistance reading through the stator windings...right?

I did the charging voltage regulator/rectifier check on page 7.2 of the repair manual.....12.7 to 13.2 volts is what I get. I think the variation in voltage depends on the battery tenders mood, I'm trying to unplug it right before each check to remove battery voltage as a variable.

So I'm thinking voltage rectifier/regulator now....your thoughts appreciated..

--------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmodem
Could be reg or stator. Check all connections, especially the battery + and - cables. Both ends. If everything is copacetic, unplug the reg and start the engine. Measure AC voltage between each of the 3 wires. S/B ~ 50 vac. If not the stator is B/O. If OK, the reg is B/O. Simple huh
-cp
cpmodem

Say again on the 50 VAC from the stator/generator....Can you point me to a reference, or is this from a measurement off of your 950? How is this measured, one meter lead on stator pin with the other meter lead to ground or another stator pin? I think I may have done the stator voltage measurements incorrectly....all for ADVRider entertainment of course..

Thanks.

autorotate screwed with this post 11-11-2006 at 07:57 PM
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:50 PM   #18
cpmodem
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Oddometer: 7,103
Humm. I'm concered that you aren't seeing anything at the stator when running. The ~50 vac is a ballpark figure thet is pretty typical of these type stators. You'll either see 50vac (or more) if it is good, or you'll see zero or a low value if bad. Many times only one phase will be bad, resulting in a low charging current.

Your battery voltage of 13.2 volts when running looks like the charging system is putting out something but not total.

Resistance readings of the stator are sometimes ambiguous. When good they will measure a low resistence. When fried they can read a low resistence also (shorted).

I'm away from my nine-fiddy for the next 3 days, or I would put a meter on it and give you some real life readings to compare to. Do you have a buddy (real good buddy) that will let you borrow his/her V-reg, just to check out your stator?
-cp

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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 11-11-2006, 03:09 PM   #19
Gert
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-cp

I'm not sure how well mine is charging either. So I'll try to do the same measurements.

Questions:

1) What would you expect battery voltage to be with running engine?
2) How do you measure the stator voltage (the 50V AC) ?
I read your post to mean betwen the pins (i.e. 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 2 to 3) whereas auto's measurements only mention one pin, i.e. it sounds like he measured each pin to ground.
3) Where is the best place to measure the stator voltage? I have not looked closer at the bike yet. Is it the brown connector with three yellow wires down by the skidplate on the left hand side close to the ignition module?
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Old 11-11-2006, 04:19 PM   #20
cpmodem
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Location: masa yee yah tee 59 14' 9" N / 135 26' 42" W
Oddometer: 7,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gert
-cp

I'm not sure how well mine is charging either. So I'll try to do the same measurements.

Questions:

1) What would you expect battery voltage to be with running engine?
2) How do you measure the stator voltage (the 50V AC) ?
I read your post to mean betwen the pins (i.e. 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 2 to 3) whereas auto's measurements only mention one pin, i.e. it sounds like he measured each pin to ground.
3) Where is the best place to measure the stator voltage? I have not looked closer at the bike yet. Is it the brown connector with three yellow wires down by the skidplate on the left hand side close to the ignition module?
1) Mine shows 13.9 - 14.2
2) You are correct
3) You are correct again

-cp
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 11-11-2006, 07:15 PM   #21
RedFlash
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cpmodem, will the stator phase-to-phase AC output be 50 volts at idle? For permanent magnet generators, I have seen them read only 10 to 20 volts. The voltage increases with engine speed, usually reaching a peak voltage where additional engine speed has no further effect (about 5000 rpm on my 525 stator upgrade). I have never measured the output on the 950, so maybe it has some wicked strong magnets flying around !

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Old 11-11-2006, 07:49 PM   #22
autorotate
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It's the voltage regulator/rectifier

So I button her back up and go for a ride out to Santa Teresa airport (5T6), then to dinner, then back home. Use the Aux lights, GPS and grip heaters the whole time. Probably about a total of 45 minute ride.

Battery reads 12.7 Volts on my return......

I was hoping I squared away a loose connection or corroded ground in my exploration through the bike....I guess not.

I recheck the stator output checking from Pin to Pin vs Pin to ground and I get:

Pin 1 to Pin 2
Idle: 21.2 VAC
3K: 37.2 VAC
5K: 60.4 VAC

Pin 1 to Pin 3
Idle: 22.0 VAC
3K: 36.4 VAC
5K: 58.6 VAC

Pin 2 to Pin 3
Idle: 21.8 VAC
3K: 36.1 VAC
5K: 59.7 VAC

I'm accounting for the variances in voltages between the three phases as due to a Saturday night BAC and my ability to hold the throttle precisely.

So good news, I think I've narrowed it down to a voltage regulator/rectifier...

Bad news it's $123 from Holeshot...I guess it's not that bad, at least I found the culprit....I think.
http://www.ktmamerica.com/ktmparts/d...s_ProductName=

I been chewing on this...I had the first service done by a convenient dealer (due to the timing, I was doing the military no home shuffle between "homes" at the time). I've noticed that they weren't as particular about where the old engine oil seemed to go on it's way out the oil tank.....like all over the regulator and connector....I wonder if this thing got hot between the time it was bathed in old engine oil, collected 2K miles worth on KTM Dual Sport dust and fun, and then was cleaned by myself at the next oil change....things that make you go hmmm....

Anywho...thanks for the help ADVrider.

autorotate screwed with this post 11-11-2006 at 07:59 PM
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Old 11-11-2006, 07:51 PM   #23
cpmodem
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Location: masa yee yah tee 59 14' 9" N / 135 26' 42" W
Oddometer: 7,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFlash
cpmodem, will the stator phase-to-phase AC output be 50 volts at idle? For permanent magnet generators, I have seen them read only 10 to 20 volts. The voltage increases with engine speed, usually reaching a peak voltage where additional engine speed has no further effect (about 5000 rpm on my 525 stator upgrade). I have never measured the output on the 950, so maybe it has some wicked strong magnets flying around !

Nothing special about the 950 generator. You're absolutely right about them being rpms effected. I usually run 'em up to about 3k to check output. The important thing is that all phases are close to equal. The 50 vac figure is a generalization applicable to all of these 3 phase stators. I wouldn't be suprised if the LC8 gen puts out something different, but it will not be very far off. I'll check a known good one when I get back to the shop, so Gert and Autorotate have something to start from.
-cp
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-cp

DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 11-11-2006, 07:55 PM   #24
autorotate
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Almost forgot to ask

It's got to be the voltage regulator/rectifier now......right?
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:23 PM   #25
cpmodem
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Location: masa yee yah tee 59 14' 9" N / 135 26' 42" W
Oddometer: 7,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by autorotate
It's got to be the voltage regulator/rectifier now......right?
Sorry, I missed your last post while answering Redflash. From the looks of your last voltage reading, it looks like the stator is fine. Next culprit on my list would be the reg. That's a lot of $$$, but I guess that's what its gonna take to get back on the road. Good news is it sounds like your battery is in great shape
-cp
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 11-11-2006, 09:16 PM   #26
950TRANSALP
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Question Hey CPMODEM ?

Did you say auxillary fuel tank switch !????? Please explaine ??? K.B.
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Old 11-11-2006, 09:48 PM   #27
cpmodem
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Location: masa yee yah tee 59 14' 9" N / 135 26' 42" W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 950TRANSALP
Did you say auxillary fuel tank switch !????? Please explaine ??? K.B.
I installed a 5.5 gal fuel cell custom built for me by BLM Accessories:
http://www.blm-accessories.com/FuelCells.cfm
It is easily mounted/removed with 4 bolts. I use it for LD Rallys and long rides where gas stations are far and few between. It extends my range to over 400 miles. The switch energizes a solinoid fuel valve near the fuel pump that switches the pump between main tanks and fuel cell.
-cp

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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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Old 11-11-2006, 10:36 PM   #28
RedFlash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmodem
Nothing special about the 950 generator. You're absolutely right about them being rpms effected. I usually run 'em up to about 3k to check output. The important thing is that all phases are close to equal. The 50 vac figure is a generalization applicable to all of these 3 phase stators. I wouldn't be suprised if the LC8 gen puts out something different, but it will not be very far off. I'll check a known good one when I get back to the shop, so Gert and Autorotate have something to start from.
-cp
Thanks! I'll save this thread for future reference ...

Right now I'm troubleshooting a bad rectifier/regulator I got with an Electrosport kit for the 525. Brand new out of the box and it's DOA to my door ...


At least the ignition coil is good .
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:44 PM   #29
950TRANSALP
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Thumbs down Electro cra_!

I just spent the majority of the summer setting up an XR650R , and tryed the Electro sp cra_! They had a cool looking speedo w temp and tach . They never were able to find the right speedo pickup or temp sender. Both F + R brake switch's leaked . Their instructions were as lame as their customer service . The battery nuked the first week and the lights never worked more than an hour . They did take it all back and I think I recived credit two months later . 'guess I'd better check ! K.B. CP how's it handle off road ? I assume it has fuel cell foam inside .
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:24 PM   #30
cpmodem
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Handles fine on or off road. Only caveat, movement of the body to the rear is limited by the tank, so I cool it in soft stuff where I need to get my weight off the front tire. The purpose of the tank isn't for blasting around in the sand anyways. Its for getting there when the stretches are long between points. ie: I used the fuel cell to get me to Elko, NV this summer, then took it off to go play in the dirt for the next few days. Put it back on for the trip home. 5 minute job on/off. I primarily use it for TSD road rallys where time stopped must be kept to a minimum. 11+ gal is the norm in these circles. No foam in the tank, it is fully baffled.
-cp
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DISCLAIMER: All observations made in this post are mine and based solely on my own anecdotal experiences, and may contain large doses of facetiousness. YMMV, of course. You are "on your own", and I take no responsibility if someone tries anything in this post and gets into trouble with the law, damages their person or property, or goes blind. Take everything you read or hear "anywhere" butt especially on the Web with a large dose of salt.

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