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Old 12-28-2005, 10:58 PM   #1
Donkey Hotey OP
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Big Bore LC4, 660, 700?

I've searched the Bleeping Index and the archives and can't come up with an answer to this, so....

I am going to need to rebuild a 640 engine here pretty soon. Does anybody have any idea how the KTM Baja bikes arrived at or near 700cc? Here's the breakdown of bores and strokes that I've collected:

Model
Actual
Bore
Stroke
620
609
101
76
640
629
101
78.5
660
654
102
80


Was the Baja engine a bore, stroker or both?

Also, does anybody know if the 640 and 660 share the same balancer or will that need to be changed with the 660 crank?
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Old 12-28-2005, 11:35 PM   #2
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The 660's and 710's are all longer stroke motors. They use different case halves and do not support counterbalancers. I have ordered a 660 crank to see if there is a way to make it work with the 640 cases. If you want to put a 660 piston in your bike you could bore it, replate it and run it but a millimeter and a half won't do much IMO.

cross-country screwed with this post 09-28-2009 at 08:50 PM
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:17 AM   #3
dirtrider
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The Dakar bikes are:

660 (654) 102x80
700 (692) 105x80

Both are big bore and longer stroke than the 640 (625)

If you have to go through the engine, but the crank is fine, why not consider a 675. We've built 2 so far and they have been awesome. It is a 105x78 engine. It builds a lot of torque and due to the stock stroke, is still a quick reving engine and with the stock crank, the counter balancer is still used. Also the piston, even though bigger in diameter, is as light as the stock piston. With a BST carb, KTM airbox screen, Pro Curcuit silencer, and no other changes, this engine puts down 54-55hp at the REAR TIRE.
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:44 AM   #4
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You might want to mention if "price is no object" or you are just dreaming.

I can imagine that the parts for the racing engines (660 on up) are very expensive, due to economies of scale if nothing else. Just a courtesy on your part since dirtrider is offering his services.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:18 AM   #5
dirtrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
You might want to mention if "price is no object" or you are just dreaming.

I can imagine that the parts for the racing engines (660 on up) are very expensive, due to economies of scale if nothing else. Just a courtesy on your part since dirtrider is offering his services.
Any time you do a big bore or stroker engine, it's expensive so most people do dream about it.

I just did a big bore on my Yamaha 700cc triple snowmobile turning it into an 800cc. I did all of my own work and bought the parts at cost, and it still cost over 1K but I went from 143hp to 168! It went from being an antique to a sled that can run with or better than the new ones and the big bore was much cheaper than a new or newer sled saving me money in the long run.

We can do the LC4 675 kit for what I feel is a realistic price.

1: You send in the cylinder and head to us and we will send it back with all the parts to install yourself $1250.00

2: You send the complete engine and we will send you back a complete engine $1575.00

3: You bring in the complete bike and we will do all the work including Dyno tuning it $1900.00

If you research big bore kits, you will find that the above prices are very reasonable.
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Old 12-29-2005, 11:20 AM   #6
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Well, I'm not dreaming. Here's the deal: I bought a 99 Adventure with a rod knock. I knew what I was getting into (thanks to Mr Creeper). I estimated that the rod, main bearings and likely the piston and liner were damaged. The difference that I can see between a 625 rod kit and whole 660 crank assy is about $250. A pistion is a piston, ditto for a replate. The difference is about $40 to punch out the bore before replating.

The strategy is this: tear down the engine. If the cylinder is okay, rebuild the crank, new seals, gaskets, maybe some clutch plates and call it good. If the cylinder is NOT okay, go for it.

This news about the 660 not using a counterbalancer is surprising. Hey Dirtrider, does your option #2 include a bottom end teardown or just top end? What do you do to the head? Overheating? I realize we're talking about significantly thicker aluminum walls here so the percentage of material removed is less. Still, I plan to operate this bike in some severe heat conditions (100+F in Death Valley).
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Old 12-29-2005, 12:18 PM   #7
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None of the options include a bottom end teardown as it's not required to install the big bore kit. On the cylinder, we don't bore it. We actually press in a new sleeve and machine the sleeve for case clearance. The head is machined for the larger bore and piston to head clearances are checked and machined if necessary. We also do a MILD! porting job.

We have not had a chance to test it in severe heat as we did the first one in October. So far there have not been any overheating problems or crankcase venting problems as some riders have had on Monomaniacs.com.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCifu
Well, I'm not dreaming. Here's the deal: I bought a 99 Adventure with a rod knock. I knew what I was getting into (thanks to Mr Creeper). I estimated that the rod, main bearings and likely the piston and liner were damaged. The difference that I can see between a 625 rod kit and whole 660 crank assy is about $250. A pistion is a piston, ditto for a replate. The difference is about $40 to punch out the bore before replating.

The strategy is this: tear down the engine. If the cylinder is okay, rebuild the crank, new seals, gaskets, maybe some clutch plates and call it good. If the cylinder is NOT okay, go for it.

This news about the 660 not using a counterbalancer is surprising. Hey Dirtrider, does your option #2 include a bottom end teardown or just top end? What do you do to the head? Overheating? I realize we're talking about significantly thicker aluminum walls here so the percentage of material removed is less. Still, I plan to operate this bike in some severe heat conditions (100+F in Death Valley).
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2001 KTM 640 LC4 Sold
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dirtrider screwed with this post 12-29-2005 at 12:27 PM
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Old 12-29-2005, 12:38 PM   #8
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Dirtrider

What's your shops phone number? I live in Spokane and would like to see aobut having you do a couple of 05 640's
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Old 12-29-2005, 12:38 PM   #9
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Okay, so I'm still in for a bottom end teardown...uhhh...I mean the BIKE is in for a bottom end teardown

A new sleeve? I thought these were nikasil on aluminum. Hmmm...this could change things. With a thinner, pressed in liner, I'm more curious about overheating and what gets done to the head. The prices seem very reasonable. It's good to know that you do this because all my Google's for "lc4 big bore" etc, etc, came up dry. Is compression ratio optional? I'd still like to run it on pump 91 in the heat.
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Old 12-29-2005, 12:48 PM   #10
dirtrider
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Sorry, I didn't clarify that. Yes I work at a Yamaha/KTM dealership.
http://www.pencoadventures.com/service.asp

The prices for the big bore packages are listed in my first post. As you live close to us, I would recommend doing the last package which includes the dyno tuning. That way we can get your jetting dialed in.
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Old 12-29-2005, 12:54 PM   #11
dirtrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudman
What's your shops phone number? I live in Spokane and would like to see aobut having you do a couple of 05 640's
You changed your post while I was typing. The number is 406-755-6229 at the shop. Give me a call and we'll get the ball rolling. Steve
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:21 PM   #12
dirtrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCifu
Okay, so I'm still in for a bottom end teardown...uhhh...I mean the BIKE is in for a bottom end teardown

A new sleeve? I thought these were nikasil on aluminum. Hmmm...this could change things. With a thinner, pressed in liner, I'm more curious about overheating and what gets done to the head. The prices seem very reasonable. It's good to know that you do this because all my Google's for "lc4 big bore" etc, etc, came up dry. Is compression ratio optional? I'd still like to run it on pump 91 in the heat.
You guys are asking too many questions. I don't want to give away too many trade secrets!

The originals are nik'ed aluminum. We remove it and bore the naked cylinder larger to accept a new cast sleeve. The new sleeve is thicker than the original and disappates heat very well. This same sleeve is used in another OEM application at these specs with no overheating problems.

Compression ratio is very optional. It's only a little machining away. On any of our big bores, we generally keep the compression reasonably low to run on pump gas and deter any detonation problems.
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtrider
You guys are asking too many questions. I don't want to give away too many trade secrets!
Hey, I've got no shortage of machining capacity but a mill is like a paint brush. Just because somebody has paint and a brush doesn't make them an artist. It's not worth $1200 to figure out all the variables, make a sleeve, source a piston, machine it, check for valve clearance, calculate compression ratios, etc, etc, THEN actually do the machine work. I know when to pay for experience.

As Creeper puts it so eloquetly on his website, there are variables involved and there is no single, 'right' solution. I'm trying to understand the variables to make the right choices for this bike.

The LC4 is already way over-square and KTM's decision to go longer stroke despite the high RPM Baja running says something about that. Does anybody know if those were one-off cranks or KTM hard parts?
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Old 12-29-2005, 02:03 PM   #14
dirtrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCifu
Hey, I've got no shortage of machining capacity but a mill is like a paint brush. Just because somebody has paint and a brush doesn't make them an artist. It's not worth $1200 to figure out all the variables, make a sleeve, source a piston, machine it, check for valve clearance, calculate compression ratios, etc, etc, THEN actually do the machine work. I know when to pay for experience.

As Creeper puts it so eloquetly on his website, there are variables involved and there is no single, 'right' solution. I'm trying to understand the variables to make the right choices for this bike.

The LC4 is already way over-square and KTM's decision to go longer stroke despite the high RPM Baja running says something about that. Does anybody know if those were one-off cranks or KTM hard parts?
You certainly know your shit. We researched this project for 3 months before getting around to building it. We have to get the pistons from Europe, the sleeve we flat got lucky on, and the machining on the first one took a lot of our time after hours in Dave's machine shop.

Check your PM's!
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Old 12-29-2005, 03:46 PM   #15
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How much to make mine run smooth?
I think they put rocks in it at the factory

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtrider
You guys are asking too many questions. I don't want to give away too many trade secrets!

The originals are nik'ed aluminum. We remove it and bore the naked cylinder larger to accept a new cast sleeve. The new sleeve is thicker than the original and disappates heat very well. This same sleeve is used in another OEM application at these specs with no overheating problems.

Compression ratio is very optional. It's only a little machining away. On any of our big bores, we generally keep the compression reasonably low to run on pump gas and deter any detonation problems.
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