ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Thumpers
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-12-2007, 07:47 PM   #151
dirty_sanchez
Dirty_Sanchez
 
dirty_sanchez's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Louisiana, Baton Rouge
Oddometer: 2,846
Whatever you do, don't ever feed your mule Johnson Grass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Dirty advrider's resident Loctite Guru checking in.

Well, this past Satuday at 100 miles of a 350 mile day I pulled over to deposit some leftover coffee I noticed this same oil leak. Not alot, but it was a leak none the less.

At first I was pretty alarmed being 100 miles from my humble abode with what I first thought was a base gasket leak but followed it up to the front left rocker cover area.

Granted I get my paycheck from Loctite, but during my life before Loctite I used plenty of tubes of threebond, yamabond, and misc. tubes of RTV's to seal up engines I rebuilt for me and paying customers.

One quality the products mentioned above had going against them was that they skinned over too quickly after drawing a bead around the sealing surface. Since they skinned over, I always felt rushed for reassembly.

Someone mentioned "The Right Stuff", an RTV. This is a great RTV, is a non-corrosive oxime cure, instant seal, holds up to hydrocarbons, but it may skin-over too quickly. Why is this bad? Because once an RTV skins over, the RTV won't "wet-out" on the other surface it needs to mate itself to. And if it won't wet-out the mating surface, it won't reliably keep the engine oil inside of the engine.

Skin-over before part mating is not a good thing when it comes to gasketed surfaces.

Resealing these rocker covers is a pure gasketing application of a "Rigid" assy.

The best gasket is no gasket because if two mating surfaces have 100% metal to metal contact-with no microscopic scratches, pits, scars, steam cuts, etc. the application would need no gasket at all.

Some of you have mentioned using Loctite's 515 Gasket Eliminator-makes flexible gaskets for rigid machined flanges with less than a 0.050" gap. Without using 7649 Primer N, the product will reliably cure through 0.010". To get the 0.050" gap seal, one of the mating surfaces must be primed...Just a little FYI. The Gasket Eliminators won't ever skin over-they only cure when sandwiched between two substrates.

When I get into this job on my bike, I'm going to use 518 instead of the 515. And here's why:

518 will cure through the same gaps on primed and unprimed surfaces, but it is slightly more flexible. But most importantly, it has a heavier viscocity (thicker) and works better on aluminum.

Here's a question for the board-
Will temperatures in this area of the engine exceed 300F?

If it gets hotter than 300F, I'll use 510 Gasket Eliminator-which is good for 400F, and I'll prime one of the mating surfaces. I've used this stuff to reliably seal steam cuts in high pressure steam line flanges.

Dirty
Dirty's checking in again to report that after 4,000 miles, that rocker cover shows no signs of leaking, seeping, or weeping.

My clutch slave has gone in the crapper and needs attention (special thanks goes out to One-Legged-Bill the bonafide hillbilly near Mt. Judea, AR who gave me the leftover mineral oil for his constipated old mule), but the rocker cover is still cooking with grease.

Dirty
__________________
No, really, the mustache means I love you.
dirty_sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2007, 08:28 PM   #152
potatoho
Cheese and Rice!
 
potatoho's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Sea-level
Oddometer: 4,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
Someone mentioned "The Right Stuff", an RTV. This is a great RTV, is a non-corrosive oxime cure, instant seal, holds up to hydrocarbons, but it may skin-over too quickly. Why is this bad? Because once an RTV skins over, the RTV won't "wet-out" on the other surface it needs to mate itself to. And if it won't wet-out the mating surface, it won't reliably keep the engine oil inside of the engine.
That's what is so weird about the right stuff. It takes its time. I used it to seal some stator windings and it stays spreadable for at least 30 minutes, yet it doesn't run at all. It cures to semi-hard rubbery texture with decent adhesion.
potatoho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2007, 06:19 AM   #153
dirty_sanchez
Dirty_Sanchez
 
dirty_sanchez's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Louisiana, Baton Rouge
Oddometer: 2,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by potatoho
That's what is so weird about the right stuff. It takes its time. I used it to seal some stator windings and it stays spreadable for at least 30 minutes, yet it doesn't run at all. It cures to semi-hard rubbery texture with decent adhesion.
The Right Stuff is a non-corrosive RTV ideally suited for larger gap applications on stamped assemblies when used in gasketed applications.

While the Right Stuff will work just fine in the rocker cover sealing application, just make sure to mate the clean/dry parts before it begins to skin over. Once any gasketing material skins over its ability to wet out on the other mating surface is compromised.

Using RTV's aren't my first choice in this application since it's a rigid assembly. An anaerobic gasketing product in my opinion is a better choice.

Dirty
__________________
No, really, the mustache means I love you.
dirty_sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2008, 04:15 PM   #154
humdinger
bp
 
humdinger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: South eastern coast , Australia
Oddometer: 616
Very informative stuff dirty_sanchez! I've experienced the gasket bead drying out (or skinning) before when using silicon. Like mentioned previously in Creepers theory room , it is easy to remove , questioning its adhesion qualities, especially when used between aluminium mating surfaces subjected to synthetic oil. As emphasized earlier, I think it imperative to use a carby cleaner, brake cleaner or similar to fully dissolve the old sealants and any oils/residues prior to application of the new gasket material.
It's a bummer that the cam bearing retainers are built into to rocker covers (weight saver, fewer parts maybe) as gasket material as used for the inspection covers would ensure a better seal IMO. If I knew any decent welder and machinist, I'd definitely go for filling the recess/flaw in the rocker cover then machining it flush again. They're all 'butchers' down my way and I wouldn't trust 'em with a road kill carcus!
I still haven't fixed my leaking rocker cover; have been reading as much info as possible from other inmates and the like. Mines an '05-640 Ad. that started leaking just over the 10 000km (6000Mile) mark. Doesn't lose much, infact I do not have to 'top up' with oil between changes but the smell of burning oil (onto header pipe) is unsettling.
From what I've experienced and read in this thread, I think I will sway towards the Hondabond HT. Not a big fan of doing a job twice in a small time frame!
I would be interested (as would others I'm sure) to hear how other re-sealing jobs are holding out and what medium was used as a gasket!?
__________________
'05 640 Adventure
humdinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2008, 10:33 PM   #155
positionsize
Gnarly Adventurer
 
positionsize's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Arizona, Florida and Philippines
Oddometer: 103
I Re-sealed my rocker cover with new tube of Hondabond HT. I did not have a proper applicator nozzle so I had to apply it straight out of the tube. Not ideal for sure. It was hard to get a consistent bead. Anyway I did the best I could with it. Made sure the entire sealing surface was covered. It started to skin over within 10 min so I was getting a bit nervous because the workability was going away real fast. In the end I think I put too much sealant. The bead around the cover was larger than I wanted after I torqued her down. I have let it cure for 4 days now.

Not sure if it’s a problem. My gut says its ok but I though I would seek the opinions of those more qualified than me (Creeper) Here are 2 pics.

Did I totaly F*** up ?
Attached Images
 
positionsize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2008, 10:34 PM   #156
positionsize
Gnarly Adventurer
 
positionsize's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Arizona, Florida and Philippines
Oddometer: 103
Pic2
Attached Images
 
positionsize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2008, 11:10 PM   #157
Dotbond
Africa, Africa
 
Dotbond's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Dunedin. New Zealand
Oddometer: 754
I have done mine a few times over the past year and i would be concerned about what is INSIDE the rocker cover. I use a modelling paint brush to spread mine around the surface with. Other people use credit cards or something similar. Get a flashlight and see inside.
The problem is IF a bit of sealant breaks loose and clogs up an oilway etc.
My gut feeling would be to pull it apart, clean up and redo.
__________________
2012 KTM 690 R
2010 KTM 990 R (Sold)

2008 N.Z.Yamaha Safari: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306905
2007 N.Z.Adventures Safari: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201557
Dotbond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2008, 11:29 PM   #158
meat popsicle
Ignostic
 
meat popsicle's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Circumlocution Office of Little Dorrit
Oddometer: 14,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotbond
I have done mine a few times over the past year and i would be concerned about what is INSIDE the rocker cover. I use a modelling paint brush to spread mine around the surface with. Other people use credit cards or something similar. Get a flashlight and see inside.
The problem is IF a bit of sealant breaks loose and clogs up an oilway etc.
My gut feeling would be to pull it apart, clean up and redo.
I'm right there with ya Dotbond, but Creeper did address this in Post #1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creeper
...

Reassembly

I don’t worry too much about trying to lay down a “pretty” bead of silicone… I just make sure that the entire sealing surface has a layer of around .030” to .050” thick, and then I wipe off the excess on the outside and inside edges and inside the bolt holes. The adhesion qualities of the 1216E means that I’m not too worried about any silicone inside the cover coming loose and clogging an oil “artery”.

...
But there probably is some limit to his statement, so if it looks like that on the inside then maybe...

Hey positionsize, did you stick to Creeper's .030" - .050" thick recommendation?
__________________
Kronreif Trunkenpolz Mattighofen LC4 640

Its not so much staying alive; its staying human that counts.
meat popsicle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 04:26 AM   #159
positionsize
Gnarly Adventurer
 
positionsize's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Arizona, Florida and Philippines
Oddometer: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
Hey positionsize, did you stick to Creeper's .030" - .050" thick recommendation?
I tried Meat but failed to get a small uniformed bead without an applicator nozzle. So I had for the most part waaaay too much applied. I removed alot and attempted to even it out with a razor blade but after 10 minutes the workability was going away quickly. I panic a little bit. Though to my self its better to have too much than too little and carefully put the cover on.

In hindsight I made a number of bonehead errors.
Kind of embarrassing but here goes.

1) I started the job with only 45 minuets until sunset.
I don’t have any power or lights in my new garage yet
so I did not leave myself enough time for error.

2) Should have waited until I got an applicator nozzle .

3) Should have applied the sealent in small sections to improve workability.

4) Should have been more aggressive in removing and
smoothing out the over applied sealent. I was trying
too hard not to get sealant on the inside and outside
edges and it slowed me down.

5) Should have planed in advance to have some better
tools on hand to smooth it out , like a brush or
1/3 of a credit card.

6) I knew it wasn’t right but fitted the cover anyway instead
of stopping what I was doing, removing the sealant and
trying again.( see number 1)

I will pull the cover and re-do it tomorrow until I get it right! Its been 5 days and I never did start the motor so I am optimistic that the Hondabond will come off easy. I never liked doing repairs twice but I learned a lot from my mistakes and will chalk it up to experience. I will post a few photos with the cover off so you can all see what the inside looked like. Hopefully someone here will benefit by seeing how NOT to re-seal the KTM LC4 rocker cover!
positionsize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 06:08 AM   #160
dirty_sanchez
Dirty_Sanchez
 
dirty_sanchez's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Louisiana, Baton Rouge
Oddometer: 2,846
If you can keep the dispensed bead the size of a #2 pencil lead....not the actual wood part, but the lead, you should be fine.

I stop fluid and air leaks for a living in the industrial workplace and if any of you might be wondering how my sealing job has turned out after many miles of smiles I'm still rolling without leak or even dusty residue using methods I lined out earlier in this thread after 6 to 8k miles.

Dirty
__________________
No, really, the mustache means I love you.
dirty_sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 06:50 AM   #161
ediehl
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Oddometer: 139
Can't believe that I stumbled over this excellent post this AM. I bought an '01 640 with ~15,000 just a couple weeks ago, supposedly street ridden only (and it looked that clean), and it promptly started leaking from the valve cover near the water pump. Was contemplating how to go about the repair, and voila!---a detailed and well thought out instruction magically appears!

Thanks Creeper!
ediehl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 06:58 AM   #162
positionsize
Gnarly Adventurer
 
positionsize's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Arizona, Florida and Philippines
Oddometer: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez
If you can keep the dispensed bead the size of a #2 pencil lead....not the actual wood part, but the lead, you should be fine.
Thanks for the Tip dirty.

This Hondabond seams to skin over very quickly.

Is it best to simply place the dispensed bead in the middle of the mating surface and fit the rocker cover or would I be better off to spread the bead out on the entire mating surface and then fit the cover?
positionsize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 07:16 AM   #163
dirty_sanchez
Dirty_Sanchez
 
dirty_sanchez's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Louisiana, Baton Rouge
Oddometer: 2,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by positionsize
Thanks for the Tip dirty.

This Hondabond seams to skin over very quickly.

Is it best to simply place the dispensed bead in the middle of the mating surface and fit the rocker cover or would I be better off to spread the bead out on the entire mating surface and then fit the cover?
If you've set your sights on using the solvent-based Hondabond, I wouldn't increase the surface area which would dramatically lower the skin-over time by spreading out the product.

A rushed job is never a quality job.

I never use or suggest using solvent based liquid gasketing products at all because the last thing a mechanic or technician needs to be worried about is being rushed during reassembly because the gasketing material skins over to quickly which prevents the product from properly wetting out each mating surface.

Dirty
__________________
No, really, the mustache means I love you.
dirty_sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 01:47 PM   #164
meat popsicle
Ignostic
 
meat popsicle's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Circumlocution Office of Little Dorrit
Oddometer: 14,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by positionsize
I tried Meat but failed to get a small uniformed bead without an applicator nozzle. So I had for the most part waaaay too much applied. I removed alot and attempted to even it out with a razor blade but after 10 minutes the workability was going away quickly. I panic a little bit. Though to my self its better to have too much than too little and carefully put the cover on.

...
Before you redo it please re-read Creeper's instructions; for example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creeper in Post #1
...
Now that the sealant is applied, you can reinstall the cover. You have, depending on the temperature, approximately one hour to assemble the cover back onto the head from the time you started applying the sealant. You did remember to clean all the fasteners… right?
...
Plenty more gems in Post #1 for your situation - take the time to learn his method and then, as Creeper's says just a little ways down from my quote: TAKE YOUR TIME!
__________________
Kronreif Trunkenpolz Mattighofen LC4 640

Its not so much staying alive; its staying human that counts.
meat popsicle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 02:41 PM   #165
crazybrit
Beastly Adventurer
 
crazybrit's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Oddometer: 8,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
But there probably is some limit to his statement, so if it looks like that on the inside then maybe...
+1. Positionsize; If it looks like this on the outside chances are it's the same on the inside and I'd redo it. Sorry but this qualifies under the "frosting cake" application technique. With this much applied you only need one piece to come loose to block an oil jet or similar.

I learnt two things from doing mine -- I didn't do either of these but I think I will next time:

1) Apply the sealant to the cover, not to the head. I can't see any difference in terms of adhesion qualities (anyone disagree?) and you can manipulate the cover much easier off-bike to quickly apply the correct sized (#2 lead) bead. Just make sure you don't apply it to any of the unnecessary interior surfaces.

Applying the bead onto the head surface, it can be tricky to get an even sized bead in certain locations due to space constraints which I think leads you to want to spread it down which as Dirty points out isn't necessary.

It's very easy to apply a thin consistent bead if you apply it to the underside of the cover surface and then no need to spread it down at all ....... finally I applied sealant to the water pump area too, as per the manual.

2) Test-fit the cover first. Before giving the surfaces one final solvent clean and (obviously) before applying the sealer. Verify the fit is good (I had issues because I'd move the clip ring openings to 12 noon, Creeper has now updated the doc regarding this) and also to practice sliding the cover in, as you'll have sealant on the underside of it.

I was able to apply a small bead to the head (using an old nozzle from some other sealant) and spread it down to a very thin coating on the head but it was stressful and I felt like I was racing against time, as I said, it would be been a lot easier had I applied it to the cover surface.

Anyways, thats my story and I'm sticking to it

crazybrit screwed with this post 01-12-2008 at 03:03 PM
crazybrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014