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Old 01-01-2006, 09:38 PM   #16
ktmnate
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I forgot to mention that when I priced out the Three-Bond, I priced it using the ktmtalk.com page. If you have never priced the tube look here it's #18 and you can see why I didn't want to pay the money. I ended paying $20 at the Yamaha dealer which is close to my work.


Nate


ps -very nice work Creeper!
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Old 01-01-2006, 09:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmnate
I forgot to mention that when I priced out the Three-Bond, I priced it using the ktmtalk.com page. If you have never priced the tube look here it's #18 and you can see why I didn't want to pay the money. I ended paying $20 at the Yamaha dealer which is close to my work.

Nate

ps -very nice work Creeper!
That has got to be a case price or... a gallon of the stuff or... I'm out of "ors".
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Old 01-01-2006, 11:31 PM   #18
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Okay, after looking at Creep's excellent pictures again, I have to go into KTM design bashing mode.

Is it common for bikes to carry all this mechanical stuff in a their rocker covers like this? Every bike I'm familair with typically has the cam running in some kind of carrier assembly that bolts to the head and sits inside the rocker box; the cover just bolts on/off and has nothing to do besides seal the rocker box up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but every time a rocker arm opens a valve, it's stressing this seam, right? I'm not an engine expert, but having another crankcase-style horizontal part line in the super-hot top-end of the engine with thrashing parts on either side of an oil seam seems pretty hare-brained to me.

Any thought to run a sewing thread or dental floss around the part line to act as a tiny o-ring gasket? I know this was recommended by many mechanics for sealing crankcase halves on old Hondas.

- Mark
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:20 AM   #19
Castleman
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Nice job!

My 99 LC4 came with only 1 dowel located next to the spark plug. My waterpump o-ring had a small amount of sealant on it. I used Yamabond when I re-sealed my LC4's rocker box, I didn't allow enough cure time prior to riding the thing , so I get to do it again.
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:51 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
Okay, after looking at Creep's excellent pictures again, I have to go into KTM design bashing mode.

Is it common for bikes to carry all this mechanical stuff in a their rocker covers like this? Every bike I'm familair with typically has the cam running in some kind of carrier assembly that bolts to the head and sits inside the rocker box; the cover just bolts on/off and has nothing to do besides seal the rocker box up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but every time a rocker arm opens a valve, it's stressing this seam, right? I'm not an engine expert, but having another crankcase-style horizontal part line in the super-hot top-end of the engine with thrashing parts on either side of an oil seam seems pretty hare-brained to me.

Any thought to run a sewing thread or dental floss around the part line to act as a tiny o-ring gasket? I know this was recommended by many mechanics for sealing crankcase halves on old Hondas.

- Mark
I know... We can armchair techno-bash the topend all to hell and gone. There is a great deal of loading on that cover... that it must also be oil tight too.

I imagine they did it to reduce complexity, size and weight. The trade off is leakage and from what I've seen in other heads, eventual warpage.

I've spoke with Colin about this a few times... maybe doing a CNC program that cuts a small groove in the center of the sealing surface on the cover. Then you could insert a round cross-section, rubber sealing band into the groove all the way around from one end of the water pump to the other.

Just a techno daydream...
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Old 01-02-2006, 10:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Castleman
My 99 LC4 came with only 1 dowel located next to the spark plug. My waterpump o-ring had a small amount of sealant on it. I used Yamabond when I re-sealed my LC4's rocker box, I didn't allow enough cure time prior to riding the thing , so I get to do it again.
Cure time prior to use seems to be a more critical issue than one would first imagine... as does the intended application of the sealant used.
For a sealant manufacturer to tell me not to use one of their products but use another instead tells me that not all "rocker cover" sealants are created equal.

I have a '99 LC4E head sitting in the shop right now with two dowels... go figure.


C
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:07 AM   #22
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Excellent write-up

As for the sealent - did you look into using hylomar?
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:14 AM   #23
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if i remember right the KLR has the same kind of setup but they use a thick rubber gasket?
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:31 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by boxermoose
Excellent write-up

As for the sealent - did you look into using hylomar?
I have quite a bit of experiance with Hylomar... it's a wonderful product for certain applications, especially where the sealing surface is fairly wide and not under a great deal of stress... and the clamping loads are a bit higher.
In this particular application environment, because Hylomar doesn't really ever harden... setting more to a putty consistency, I don't imagine it would survive for long.
Also, because Hylomar has a gap limit of .010"... its use in rocker covers with any warpage would be a mistake.

I also seriously considered and anaerobic sealant such as Loc-Tite 515, but again, it's an application that would not be optimal for its use.

Silicone functions as a semi-hard "flexible gasket" and in this application where the sealing medium is exposed to heat, oil, vibration and a degree of movement, I think silicone is probably the best choice as it adheres to the mating surfaces, allowing the movement to take place in the silicone layer, rather than abrading it.

The above is a combination of fact and theory based on experience and research. I don’t claim to be a “sealant rocket scientist”, but based on what I’ve learned, a premium silicone product like 1216E, designed expressly for this particular application is the “goop of choice”.

C
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:35 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by mars
if i remember right the KLR has the same kind of setup but they use a thick rubber gasket?
Don't know... never looked at a KLR exploded view. Got one?
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:46 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by creeper
Don't know... never looked at a KLR exploded view. Got one?
i just checked marks klr valve adjustment page and they have seperate caps for the cam but the cover has a big thick rubber gasket that form fits around the whole cover. this does sound like a weak point on the ktm. i guess they cant have the outer cover making contact or it would prevent the bearing cap from being seated.
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:59 PM   #27
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Bravo Creeper. You should publish a manual. Your attention to detail and wording with instructions is top notch.

If you write it, they will buy.

S.C.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:10 PM   #28
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Bravo Creeper. You should publish a manual. Your attention to detail and wording with instructions is top notch.

If you write it, they will buy.

S.C.
Yep.... all 67 of us.
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mars
i just checked marks klr valve adjustment page and they have seperate caps for the cam but the cover has a big thick rubber gasket that form fits around the whole cover. this does sound like a weak point on the ktm. i guess they cant have the outer cover making contact or it would prevent the bearing cap from being seated.
Yeah... but does the KLR cover provide the clamp load for the cam bearings and support the rockers and rocker shafts?
Thats the deal with a LC4, the cover isn't just a cover, it's a structural part of the cylinder head.
Thats why they don't use a gasket... metal to metal provides a very specific clamp load on the cam bearings where a rubber gasket sandwiched in between would be variable depending on the torque value used.
Unless there was a positive stop to set the cover at a specific height from the head... that would work pretty well because you'd have your desired clamp on the gasket and a set clamp load on the cam bearings.

C
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Old 01-02-2006, 01:16 PM   #30
Castleman
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I spent 2 hours looking for the missing 2nd locating dowel, and of course, never found it since it was never there.

I was thinking of using regular Permatex the next time I attempted to reseal the rocker box, I was thinking it would be a little more forgiving as the two parts (the head and rocker box) would seem to move a lot during normal engine operation. Since it didn't work for you, I won't try it.

The original sealant lasted over 25,000 miles and never leaked a drop. I think my motor has more blow bye than most motors based on my mileage. My motor is starting to seep oil from the timing window and shift shaft seal, these are issues I will have to address in the near future. I would really like to see how many miles I can get out of this thing without cracking it open.

Keep up the good work Creeper! I'll shut up now!
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