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Old 01-03-2006, 06:47 AM   #46
scottcolbath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper


Scott...

It's easier to give info out for free than to worry about making a few bucks on it.
Who said anything about making a few bucks? I'd expect mine at cost.

Quote:
Besides, it ain't rocket science, just info for folks that like to have a little supplemental information before they tackle a job.
True. What I have done already is collected some if your other quality posts and printed them out. They reside in my handy KTM satchel thingey that came with the bike. Eventually I'll toss it all in a three ring binder like I used to do with my Harley manuals, since the pages in those never stuck to the binding.

Quote:
That and once you start charging for information, someone will figure out how to give it out for free. Look at how much trouble KTM has to go thru to keep their intellectual property off the net… they must have to hand out “Cease and Desist” orders at the rate of two or three every month.
I've said it before. They are like the Harley of Austria.

Quote:
I've been a mech for so long that much of this stuff is automatic, but even someone with a good mechanical aptitude likes to have some reassurance that they aren't doing something overtly stupid.
C
Exactly. And I like reality checks when I'm doing things like working on the KTM. Your stuff leaves nothing unanswered.

S.C.
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:04 AM   #47
IronDawg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
snip...
Is it common for bikes to carry all this mechanical stuff in a their rocker covers like this?
All Suzuki DR's engines are built this way. However, unlike the KTM, the rocker cover/holder has either 10 or 12 bolts holding it down to maintain an equal clamping force.

I think the trick, like Creeper said, is to get a nice even bead and let the goo cure for at least for 72 hrs. at room temps. Don't try this in the middle of winter. I've had pretty good luck with Yamabond and has come recommended by professional engine builders. It resists breakdown to oil and gas better than others...not sure about blow-out specs. I put some hard miles on the DR, 3 days of 275+ miles in Big Bend and west Texas at high speed without problems.

Crossing my fingers that I won't have this problem on the KTM!!
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Old 01-03-2006, 09:53 AM   #48
markjenn
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Interesting about the DR. I have a DRZ, and it has a conventional DOHC bolt-on rocker cover that covers the top end of the engine and does nothing but seal the rocker box and allow access for valve clearance checks.

Maybe SOHC's tend more to the KTM's design.

- Mark
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:14 AM   #49
Rad
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well done, Chris

We will get it added to the Halls of Smart Stuff.

Mine leaked just after I got the bike used, the local KTM shop fixed it and I had to re-do it myself when my H2O pump seals went south. I did it just the way you show, use'n the good stuff. I also just replaced the copper sealing washers, their cheap and your in there anyway.

My biggest problem, get'n a torque wrench on all the fasteners. I gave up on a couple and used the old wrist calibrated torque-O meter

No leaks so far
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:16 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
well done, Chris

We will get it added to the Halls of Smart Stuff.

Mine leaked just after I got the bike used, the local KTM shop fixed it and I had to re-do it myself when my H2O pump seals went south. I did it just the way you show, use'n the good stuff. I also just replaced the copper sealing washers, their cheap and your in there anyway.

My biggest problem, get'n a torque wrench on all the fasteners. I gave up on a couple and used the old wrist calibrated torque-O meter

No leaks so far
You need a smaller torque wrench than that 800ft.lb. job you carry around with you.
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Old 01-03-2006, 02:00 PM   #51
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Question for Creeper?

About 700 miles ago while adjusting the valves, a small nut fell, bounced and yes landed in the spark plug hole. I was able to just lift the head up enough with everything loostened to retrieve the nut. I just torqued everything back down and it ran fine- except for a small oil leak on the left side near the rear where one of the 6mm screws is located. This bike only has a few thousand miles on it and the leak is clean oil about 1-2 tablespoon per 40-50 mile ride.

Do I need to replace the head gasket right away or is this something that can wait till another leak or something else arises. Right now I just wipe it off and go on.
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Old 01-03-2006, 02:08 PM   #52
ChrisC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhart
About 700 miles ago while adjusting the valves, a small nut fell, bounced and yes landed in the spark plug hole. I was able to just lift the head up enough with everything loostened to retrieve the nut. I just torqued everything back down and it ran fine- except for a small oil leak on the left side near the rear where one of the 6mm screws is located. This bike only has a few thousand miles on it and the leak is clean oil about 1-2 tablespoon per 40-50 mile ride.

Do I need to replace the head gasket right away or is this something that can wait till another leak or something else arises. Right now I just wipe it off and go on.

I'd say it's a wipe-and-go, as long as you can stand the spooge (Creeper would have a peptic seizure) and you maintain a sufficient oil level.......
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Old 01-03-2006, 03:45 PM   #53
Rad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
(Creeper would have a peptic seizure) ]
Are you kid'n, Creeper would have rebuilt the entire motor and repainted the frame at the same time
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Old 01-03-2006, 03:58 PM   #54
ChrisC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad
Are you kid'n, Creeper would have rebuilt the entire motor and repainted the frame pink at the same time
fuxxed
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Old 01-03-2006, 05:27 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhart
About 700 miles ago while adjusting the valves, a small nut fell, bounced and yes landed in the spark plug hole. I was able to just lift the head up enough with everything loostened to retrieve the nut. I just torqued everything back down and it ran fine- except for a small oil leak on the left side near the rear where one of the 6mm screws is located. This bike only has a few thousand miles on it and the leak is clean oil about 1-2 tablespoon per 40-50 mile ride.

Do I need to replace the head gasket right away or is this something that can wait till another leak or something else arises. Right now I just wipe it off and go on.
Welcome to the Asylum n00b. (Rad is slackin' in his mandatory mod greetings )

__________________________________________________ ___

Jeeeezzzz... What, you didn't have a magnet?

OK, seein' as how your new an all, I won't chew on ya' anymore for that one.

Aside from the verbal abuse heaped on by some of the funnier members of La Familia... sounds like its leaking around the cam chain cavity.
As long as its not a combustion or coolant leak, I wouldn't get too spun up over it.

Now, if it was my bike...


























(said that to give the fellers a chuckle)
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Old 01-03-2006, 06:18 PM   #56
ChrisC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
Aside from the verbal abuse heaped on by some of the funnier members of La Familia...

La familia que come n00bs junto permanece junta.....
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Old 01-03-2006, 06:35 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
La familia que come n00bs junto permanece junta.....
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:19 PM   #58
Bob
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I think Creep is getting a little sloppy! Pic 3, I see some scratches in the frame paint, Pic 4 dirt inside the donut retaining tube. Oh my.

Actually thanks for the directions, I had a small leak right next to, infront of the water pump. I just drained all the oil out. It saves me on the price of oil and filters and no more leak. I did add some Slick 50 so I guess the motor will only be good for another 50-60 thousand miles!

Chris are you going to come to Passmores Tech Day and check out the inside of my motor?
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:16 PM   #59
meat popsicle
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"Impressive. Most impressive..."


Once again I am looking at a job that, before reading this post, I would have decided was beyond my skills. Now, I not only feel that I have more than adequate instruction in order to perform the task (this observation firmly grounded in the fact that I successfully performed the last valve adjustment using your how-to, 'measuring' 0.001" for the first time in my life), I am also surprisingly calm about the thought of opening up the top end of my engine (which would also be another first).

A good portion of that serenity comes simply from the attention to detail. Above and beyond the necessities of performing this job, there are obviously many pitfalls that you clearly mark and provide instruction for - thank you in advance for saving us from them... but beyond those there is a candor here that, how shall I put it, takes the pressure off and allows me to continue focusing through the guide. I have highlighted some of those in my comments below. One step beyond these is the style of (how shall I put this?) 'informative guideance', discussing the "why" of choices, which always helps in my opinion.

So my comments are in Lime in text. Really, there wasn't much I could say. I haven't done this yet myself; my seal blew before 5K miles but the bike was in the shop for 'warranty' work and the shop just added it on to the work order. It has only been a few thousand more so perhaps I will need this guide soon!

Thanks again creeper!

Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
Re-sealing the KTM LC4 rocker cover

It seems that nearly everyone with an LC4 will, at some point need to re-seal their cylinder head rocker cover. Most seem to develop a leak at the left front, above the exhaust port.
Why this is such a common location is the subject of many theories, but I can tell you that a head I have in the shop right now has enough of a gap in this location between the head and cover to see the light from a flashlight thru.
The problem with these heads is that you can’t “re-machine” the surfaces without altering the cam bearing clamp load or the relationship of the rockers to the valve stem tips.
The only “cure” that comes to mind if the gap is beyond the capabilities of a sealant is to weld the low spots and re-machine the surface to the original height. Would your techno daydream in post #20 count as a "cure" as well? I guess that it wouldn't be helpful to most since it isn't a DIY job - unless you a skilled machinist with a shop.

The first time I re-sealed my rocker cover was less than 2500 miles ago, just before I left for Loadedpalooza… in September.
I used Permatex because it was convenient, then I hit the road less than 36 hours after I had done the job.
Now that it’s leaking again, and I have my bike apart for other projects, I decided to think about this process a bit and do a little investigating before approaching the job.

This time around I did some research on sealants and the methodology of the job. Why did it start to leak again? Was it the sealant, the process… did I damage the wet bead during reassembly? Was it the rush to finish or too limited a cure time before going for a ride?

A few things come to mind.
1. I didn’t disconnect the ‘Y’ radiator hose from the thermostat… I thought I could get “around” it. Disassembly was no big deal, but reassembly was a PITA trying to clear that hose and not disrupt my bead of sealant.
2. I did not allow the sealant an adequate amount of time to cure. Some brands require as much as 72 hours for “best results”.
3. I got lazy and used regular old Permatex gasket maker, the cheapest cheesiest stuff on the market, only one or two steps above bathroom caulk.

The product I originally intended to use for this second re-seal was Three Bond 1211. This is a high silicone rubber content sealant that is designed for this type of application and comes well recommended. It is available thru shops carrying Tucker Rocky and/or Parts Unlimited products.
Curious about the sealants properties and best usage, I contacted Three Bond International with a few questions, and to my surprise I got not only a rapid response but additional, and what I think is very valuable, advice… more on this later.

Stuff you need or may want to buy

1. Sealant is a good place to start. I’m not going to presume to tell you what to use… we all have our “pet” chemicals that we’ve had good to mixed success with. But you may be interested in what I’ve found out... read on.
2. You may wish to replace all the copper sealing washers that are under the five (5) “center” bolts holding the rocker cover on… but they can probably be reused a few times before they are complete junk.
3. Rocker inspection cover gaskets if yours are getting a little frayed around the edges.
4. Coolant… as chances are, you’re going to lose a bit.
5. The tools you’ll need are pretty much the same ones you use for a valve lash inspection/adjustment. A low value torque wrench for the rocker cover fasteners is pretty much mandatory, as the torques are quite low and easy to overshoot with out one. Clearance issues? Oddball attachments required to reach the fasteners with a torque wrench? This was an issue for me torquing the rocker inspection covers.
6. Some sort of cap or plug to seal the thermostat housing while the radiator hose is removed. It has a tendency to seep for awhile until after the fluid level ah… levels. "ah... levels. ..." BTW, is that shop rag in the pics your plug?

Disassembly

To begin, we have to do the usual… which is of course, remove everything that’s in the way.
Once you’ve gotten to this point…





You’re not ready yet.

More disassembly

You’ll need to remove and/or disconnect a few more parts, such as:
1. Condenser.
2. Tank mounting “doughnuts”.
3. Miscellaneous wire connectors.
4. Fan assembly if you have one.
5. Decompressor cable.
6. Upper ‘Y’ radiator hose.
7. Engine top breather hose.

Not disconnecting the ‘Y’ hose from the thermostat housing was a mistake I made the first time I did this… I didn’t want to screw around with coolant.
Trying to maneuver the cover back in to place without disturbing the fresh sealant, with the ‘Y’ hose in the way just made the reassembly job much harder than it needed to be. I can just imagine the nice smooth layer of sealant (read below) catching and smearing on something trying to jostle it into place with the 'Y' hose there... Very nice tip!


You’re ready to start in earnest when you get to this point.





Finding TDC-C

Now you’ll need to turn the motor over until you are near TDC-C… just like checking valve lash. This is necessary to take any loads off the cam, rockers and valves.
It’s not necessary to de-tension the cam chain tensioner, unless you intend to remove and reseal the water pump as well. Chances are that the next time I do this job, I’ll be pulling the head for valve seat touch-ups, replacing the water pump seals and ah… some other stuff.

If you are not familiar with finding TDC-C, here is an outline of the process.

Even More disassembly

Now that you’re at TDC-C, you can unbolt the cam cover. Careful not to lose the copper sealing washers under the four (4) long center cover bolts and the one (1) short one above and behind the spark plug hole.

And this is what it looks like.





One thing you need to attend to right now. OK… two things. There is a large snap ring that retains the outer cam bearing. This has a tendency to move up out of its groove in the head. Make sure that you press it back down and seat it into its groove before you reinstall the rocker cover… if you forget, you can damage the machined groove in the cover and head.
Number two… some LC4s have two (2) locating dowels at either end of the camshaft… and some only have one. The first time I did this job, I thought I had lost the left side dowel down the cam chain tower, when in fact 2003 640 Adventures have only one dowel… surprise surprise.
It appears that in 2003, KTM changed the two bolts that hold the rocker shafts in place from 6mm to 8mm and deleted a hollow dowel nearest the cam gear. The black headed 8mm bolts are easy to spot.
I understand that Loadedagain will be re-sealing the cover on his 2002 640 Adventure within the next month, so unless someone knows for sure, we’ll wait and see what Loaded finds in the way of bolts and locating dowels when he pulls his cover.

Defunkafication

And now the fun part, also known as the part I hate the mostest worstest… removing all the old sealant. Nothing to say except take your time, try not to scratch anything… and get all the old sealant off.
I use a combination of tools, a square edge carbide gasket scraper, a single edge razor blade, an X-acto knife, a plastic razor blade and finally a little acetone for those hard to scrape spots on the head.
Did I say take your time? OK… just checking. How easy is it to scratch something? How bad is it? I am guessing this depends on how deep or where but... just curious.

After you’ve removed all the old sealant, use a solvent such as a carb or brake cleaner, lacquer reducer… you get the idea, something that doesn’t leave any residue, to wipe down the sealing surfaces. You may want to do this several times especially if you use synthetic oil… the surfaces need to be completely oil free and dry.
Don’t forget to clean all the rocker cover fasteners now… instead of after you have the cover back on.
Is the cam snap ring seated in its groove? Do you have the correct number of locating dowels for your application?

While you’ve got the rocker cover off

1. Check the rocker arm lateral end play. If either or both are out of spec, you can re-shim them using the various sizes of available shims from KTM and get your “elephant’s feet” centered over the valve stem tips again… and possibly eliminate that pesky noise that’s been driving you crazy for the last 5000 miles. Lateral play for the rockers is 0.20mm to 0.30mm. If I don't know how to measure this, or have this accurate of tools, then should I skip this part? I was thinking this is one of those "your here, might as well" things.
2. You can also look for pitting and unusual wear on the cam; the rocker cam followers, the elephant’s feet and the valve stem tips. The elephant’s feet will have oval or “rounded rectangle” shaped wear patterns… this is normal as long as they have no real measurable “depth” to them. If you are unsure, replace them.





Sealant application

As I said earlier, I intended to use Three Bond 1211… until I talked to Tony Tsukui, the Branch Manager at Three Bond International in Torrance, CA.

My first question was about “when” to use the product… in other words, should I assemble the parts before or after the product becomes “tack free”? Tony told me in no uncertain terms that Three Bond silicone sealants should be assembled before they become tack free.

I told Tony what my particular application was, and this is where I think contacting Three Bond was one of my better ideas.
Tony recommended that I not use the 1211, but instead using a relatively new product called 1216E, which was developed for Honda, specifically for rocker cover applications. It is sold in Honda dealers as “Hondabond HT” sealant. In the rocker cover application, it surpasses the hard to find Three Bond 1215, which is the product recommended by KTM.



Tony sent me a small sample of the 1216E and I put a bead of it next to a bead of the 1211. The white 1211 is almost a liquid when applied where as the grey 1216E is very thick. After two days to cure a bit, the difference is quite noticeable in that the 1216E sets up to a much firmer, stronger consistency, where as the 1211 is softer and more pliable.

Just for fun, I also applied a bead of the same Permatex product I used the first time I re-sealed the cover. It was very easy to dislodge the cured Permatex from the metal plate I applied the sealants to… both Three bond products had much better adhesion.

Tony also sent me a data sheet on the 1216E. The “blow out” specs are much higher than anything else I could find similar data on. This could possibly cure those rocker cover leaks that have a “bit of daylight” showing thru the seams due to heat or owner/tech over-torquing warpage.

Anyway, after reading all the data on the products, talking to Tony and performing my less than objective, touchy feely test… I went and bought a tube of Hondabond HT/Three Bond 1216E.


Reassembly

I don’t worry too much about trying to lay down a “pretty” bead of silicone… I just make sure that the entire sealing surface has a layer of around .030” to .050” thick, and then I wipe off the excess on the outside and inside edges and inside the bolt holes. The adhesion qualities of the 1216E means that I’m not too worried about any silicone inside the cover coming loose and clogging an oil “artery”. If one is a motochondriac, would it hurt to leave a small portion of the inside edge without any sealant? Just a tiny bit to help ensure none, or less, sqeezes out inside. This is also partly due to the fact that I have little hope that my layer would be .030" - how would I measure this? Tool?

Now that the sealant is applied, you can reinstall the cover. You have, depending on the temperature, approximately one hour to assemble the cover back onto the head from the time you started applying the sealant. You did remember to clean all the fasteners… right?

If you own an “Oil in the frame” LC4, then you have a braided stainless hose used to carry engine oil to the frame down tube. These have a tendency to be a little tight. Rather than remove the hose, I zip-tie it to the water pump bypass hose to keep it out of the way when reinstalling the cover.



Carefully reinstall the rocker cover making sure it goes down square and even onto the head…
Don’t rush this part of the job, it’s the reason you’re here in the first place!

Reinstall all the fasteners and thread them all the way in by hand. Note the lengths of the bolts. The longer of the two left side and right side center bolts go in the holes where the dowel(s) are or would be, as the threads start deeper in the hole.
Using KTMs assembly pattern, torque the fasteners in the following order:
1. Tighten the four (4) long center bolts to 6ft.lbs in a cross pattern.
2. Tighten the two (2) right side rocker shaft retainer bolts to 11ft.lbs.
3. Tighten the remaining “exterior” bolts to 6ft.lbs.
4. Don’t forget the bolt with the copper sealing washer behind and above the spark plug hole!

This may seem like a low torque value, and you may think to yourself “If a little is good, then too much should be just right”. Consider that as the engine heats up, the clamp load can increase as much as 300%, so even a small increase in torque value could exceed the limits of any sealant to remain in place. Like I said, a little "WHY" goes a long way in explaining. Thanks!

TA DA!!! Congratulations… you’ve done it!

Reassembly is pretty straight forward. You will need to check and possibly adjust your valve lash… instructions on how to do that are right here.

Don’t wipe off any excess sealant from the outside, let it set up and leave it the hell alone. With some sealants, peeling this excess off can damage the quality of the joint seal.
If you applied the correct amount of sealant, you will have a firm 1/32” to 3/32” bead of sealant all the way around the cover.
As you only drained the cooling system from the thermostat up, you should be able to refill with coolant and be good to go with minimal need for burping the system.
It’s still a good idea however when you first start the bike to leave the radiator cap off and check the coolant flow and level. Re-check after the bike has cooled back to room temperature.

It’s recommended that the sealant be allowed to cure for at least 48 hours and preferably 72 before you start your bike. For engines with a bit of “gap”, the longer you allow the sealant to cure before being put into service the greater the likelihood it will hold a seal.

I can’t think of anything else to add… sorry there are no pics of the applied sealant on the cover, I was preoccupied.

Have Fun!
Creep

I'd like to sincerely thank Tony Tsukui and Colleen Kasai of Three Bond International for the invaluable information they provided, only a small percentage of which is included in this guide.
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Old 01-03-2006, 10:50 PM   #60
creeper OP
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Location: Puget Sound
Oddometer: 10,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
"Impressive. Most impressive..."


Once again I am looking at a job that, before reading this post, I would have decided was beyond my skills. Now, I not only feel that I have more than adequate instruction in order to perform the task (this observation firmly grounded in the fact that I successfully performed the last valve adjustment using your how-to, 'measuring' 0.001" for the first time in my life), I am also surprisingly calm about the thought of opening up the top end of my engine (which would also be another first).

A good portion of that serenity comes simply from the attention to detail. Above and beyond the necessities of performing this job, there are obviously many pitfalls that you clearly mark and provide instruction for - thank you in advance for saving us from them... but beyond those there is a candor here that, how shall I put it, takes the pressure off and allows me to continue focusing through the guide. I have highlighted some of those in my comments below. One step beyond these is the style of (how shall I put this?) 'informative guideance', discussing the "why" of choices, which always helps in my opinion.

So my comments are in Lime in text. Really, there wasn't much I could say. I haven't done this yet myself; my seal blew before 5K miles but the bike was in the shop for 'warranty' work and the shop just added it on to the work order. It has only been a few thousand more so perhaps I will need this guide soon!

Thanks again creeper!
Geeezzz Meat... talk about a response! You've asked some good questions... and some "Meat Questions" too ... Lets see, how do I do this without reprinting the whole fuckin' thing again...

Would your techno daydream in post #20 count as a "cure" as well? I guess that it wouldn't be helpful to most since it isn't a DIY job - unless you a skilled machinist with a shop.
I think the harder part would be finding the appropriate material to put into the groove once it was machined.


Clearance issues? Oddball attachments required to reach the fasteners with a torque wrench? This was an issue for me torquing the rocker inspection covers.
I used a 3/8" drive (1/4" is out for recalibration) with a 3/8" to 1/4" reducer, a 1/4" "wobbly" and 1/4" drive Allan sockets.

"ah... levels. ..." BTW, is that shop rag in the pics your plug?
Yep... I found a nice rubber plug right after I took the pic.

I can just imagine the nice smooth layer of sealant (read below) catching and smearing on something trying to jostle it into place with the 'Y' hose there... Very nice tip!
If you look close at the pics, you'll see some sealant from the first time smeared on the right front valve spring collar.

How easy is it to scratch something? How bad is it? I am guessing this depends on how deep or where but... just curious.
You'd have to work at it. Just take your time. If it takes an hour and a half to clean the head... then that’s what it takes.

If I don't know how to measure this, or have this accurate of tools, then should I skip this part? I was thinking this is one of those "your here, might as well" things.
Ah... .020mm X a constant of 0.394" = .0079" or rounded off... (.008") eight thousandths. Got it? (.0394" = 1mm)

If one is a motochondriac, would it hurt to leave a small portion of the inside edge without any sealant? Just a tiny bit to help ensure none, or less, squeezes out inside. This is also partly due to the fact that I have little hope that my layer would be .030" - how would I measure this? Tool?
This is a "Meat Question". I think a little bit on the inside helps "protect" the seam... IMHO.
What you got that’s about .030" to.050" thousandths thick? Use that as a "tactile guide".

Like I said, a little "WHY" goes a long way in explaining. Thanks!
I was at Harley-D in the early 80s, dickin' around in the tech. dept. and they had a strain gauge on a Shovelhead rocker cover. The correct torque as I recall should be 14ft.lbs.
Then they heated the head up to 275 degrees F. Torque increased to 44ft.lbs.
So, imagine some dipshit with a little leak... "I can fix this... I'll just tighten down the nuts (the ones I can reach, with my nifty K-Mart tool kit) a bit" ... so Mr. Fix-it torques the ones he can reach down to say... 25ft.lbs. After seeing that demonstration, I was never surprised when I saw Shovelhead rocker cover gaskets being squeezed out from the sealing surface.

Wooo… that took a while. Considering how much time you took to read, understand and ask questions about the guide... I consider it time well spent.

Thanks Meat... G'night
C
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