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Old 09-21-2006, 05:26 PM   #106
warewolf
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Thumb Done it

Well thanks to creeper for the guide and to meat popsicle for the Hondabond HT. Did the deed and now have a tidy bead of droopy grey goo clinging to the top end of the engine, curing as I type.

A couple of points of interest:

Firstly, reading the destructions on the Hondabond packet, it says that it cures by reacting to atmospheric moisture. So after setting the valve lash, I've left the valve covers off while the sealant cures in order to maximise the exposure of the sealent inside the cam cover to 'atmospheric moisture.'

Secondly, 6ft.lbs = 8Nm and 11ft.lbs = 15Nm. I hope. I'm whole-heartedly metric. The fact that creeper quoted his numbers in ft.lbs and my torque wrench is calibrated in in.lbs (primarily Nm) is one reason I hate the imperial 'system'. I think the pedants would argue that it's not a 'system' but a collection of unrelated ideas...but I digress! Edit: all the M6 screws, both near the cam gear and around the perimeter, are 10Nm on this year model.

Thirdly, this 2005 EU/AU bike has M7 bolts in typical grey colour for the two bolts that hold the rocker shafts in place. That's what is specified in the US 2003 [edit: 2005] microfiche (Pic 1, #54 & #55). The black-headed M8s might have been a prototype fix?

Pic 1: Cylinder Head
#9 AH Screw near sparkplug
#3 copper washer
#54 AH screw M7
#55 AH screw M7


And lastly, I removed a few extra bits to make the job easier. Normally I'd just battle with it and swear a lot.

I didn't have a suitable plug for the thermostat housing - and the fecker wouldn't stop dripping through a rag I'd stuffed in there - so I disconnected the thermostat to water pump hose at the water pump end and left a rag underneath to collect further drips - of which there were very few.

My bike still has all the emissions gear fitted so compared to creeper's pics the right side of the engine is much busier with the EPC valve, SAS valve and associated plumbing. I disconnected a couple of hoses to ease access:
  • the input tube at the SAS valve, the other end is attached to the frame
  • the narrow vacuum hose from the SAS valve
  • that same vacuum hose from the inlet manifold
Sorry I can't find an online pic of the "Secondary Air System", page 05-584.31.2 in my manual. Anyone?


The dealer must have had the cam cover off at some stage. I can tell, because there were two different colours of sealant present! There was very little excess internally, much less than in creeper's pics, which indicates they'd been quite sparing with the sealant. Without going stupid and making a big mess, I wasn't so tardy. Additionally, I made sure the sealant bead was a little thicker in the front LHS area where leaks are prevalent. Despite this, upon fitment there was less excess squeezed out at that point than elsewhere. Is that a sign there is a bigger gap at that point?

Until I looked at these diagrams just now, I thought the dealer had moved the copper washer from the screw near the sparkplug (Pic 1, #9) to the cam cover screw that holds the EPC bracket (Pic 2, #10), so I moved it back...but now the EPC bracket is not quite sitting straight. I should have checked the pics first, as the dealer has simply lost the washer that should be under the screw near the sparkplug. Mea culpa. Will chase up a washer and retrofit once the sealant has fully cured.

Pic 2: EPC system
#10 rear-RHS cam cover bolt
#9 copper washer


So thank you again, gents. Hope this is of use to other folks.
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warewolf screwed with this post 03-09-2010 at 03:07 AM Reason: Updated torque values, updated images.
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Old 09-21-2006, 05:43 PM   #107
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Very good warewolf. Excellent information for those with 2005 EU/AU bikes and probably '06 bikes as well. I'll link your post at the end of the guide.

My bike remains oil tight... looking forward to yours holding it's mud as well.

C
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:17 AM   #108
dirty_sanchez
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Dirty advrider's resident Loctite Guru checking in.

Well, this past Satuday at 100 miles of a 350 mile day I pulled over to deposit some leftover coffee I noticed this same oil leak. Not alot, but it was a leak none the less.

At first I was pretty alarmed being 100 miles from my humble abode with what I first thought was a base gasket leak but followed it up to the front left rocker cover area.

Granted I get my paycheck from Loctite, but during my life before Loctite I used plenty of tubes of threebond, yamabond, and misc. tubes of RTV's to seal up engines I rebuilt for me and paying customers.

One quality the products mentioned above had going against them was that they skinned over too quickly after drawing a bead around the sealing surface. Since they skinned over, I always felt rushed for reassembly.

Someone mentioned "The Right Stuff", an RTV. This is a great RTV, is a non-corrosive oxime cure, instant seal, holds up to hydrocarbons, but it may skin-over too quickly. Why is this bad? Because once an RTV skins over, the RTV won't "wet-out" on the other surface it needs to mate itself to. And if it won't wet-out the mating surface, it won't reliably keep the engine oil inside of the engine.

Resealing these rocker covers is a pure gasketing application of a "Rigid" assy.

The best gasket is no gasket because if two mating surfaces have 100% metal to metal contact-with no microscopic scratches, pits, scars, steam cuts, etc. the application would need no gasket at all.

Some of you have mentioned using Loctite's 515 Gasket Eliminator-makes flexible gaskets for rigid machined flanges with less than a 0.050" gap. Without using 7649 Primer N, the product will reliably cure through 0.010". To get the 0.050" gap seal, one of the mating surfaces must be primed...Just a little FYI. The Gasket Eliminators won't ever skin over-they only cure when sandwiched between two substrates.

When I get into this job on my bike, I'm going to use 518 instead of the 515. And here's why:

518 will cure through the same gaps on primed and unprimed surfaces, but it is slightly more flexible. But most importantly, it has a heavier viscocity (thicker) and works better on aluminum.

Here's a question for the board-
Will temperatures in this area of the engine exceed 300F?

If it gets hotter than 300F, I'll use 510 Gasket Eliminator-which is good for 400F, and I'll prime one of the mating surfaces. I've used this stuff to reliably seal steam cuts in high pressure steam line flanges.

Dirty
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dirty_sanchez screwed with this post 12-19-2006 at 05:54 PM
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:36 AM   #109
KenR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
While you’ve got the rocker cover off

1. Check the rocker arm lateral end play. If either or both are out of spec, you can re-shim them using the various sizes of available shims from KTM and get your “elephant’s feet” centered over the valve stem tips again… and possibly eliminate that pesky noise that’s been driving you crazy for the last 5000 miles. Lateral play for the rockers is 0.20mm to 0.30mm.
Another well written, highly informative guide Creeper. Thanks!

I just fixed my rocker cover leak about a week ago. It wasn't hard to see why mine leaked - what little OEM sealant that was applied to the cover when the engine was assembled had basically squished right out. I had bare metal/bare metal where the leak was.

I wanted to post a little note about checking the rocker arm lateral end play. When I did this, I made the mistake of checking this clearance without the rocker shaft bolts in in their respective holes in the cover and shafts. This resulted in an erroneous measurement and wasn't something I caught until I had ordered shims and waited a week for them to arrive. After re-shimming and assembling the shafts into the cover, I quickly discovered that the rocker arms were never out of spec to begin with.

Lesson learned: check the rocker arm lateral end play with the rocker shaft/cover bolts in their holes.
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Old 12-19-2006, 11:32 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenR
Another well written, highly informative guide Creeper. Thanks!

I just fixed my rocker cover leak about a week ago. It wasn't hard to see why mine leaked - what little OEM sealant that was applied to the cover when the engine was assembled had basically squished right out. I had bare metal/bare metal where the leak was.

I wanted to post a little note about checking the rocker arm lateral end play. When I did this, I made the mistake of checking this clearance without the rocker shaft bolts in in their respective holes in the cover and shafts. This resulted in an erroneous measurement and wasn't something I caught until I had ordered shims and waited a week for them to arrive. After re-shimming and assembling the shafts into the cover, I quickly discovered that the rocker arms were never out of spec to begin with.

Lesson learned: check the rocker arm lateral end play with the rocker shaft/cover bolts in their holes.
Yep... considering the bolts and their fit in the shafts/cover are what establish end play, that would be a good reminder. It's an odd design really, considering the play in it.

If you ever get a chance... with the rocker cover off, take the o-rings off the shafts and loosely assemble the cover and bolts to the head. Until you tighten down the bolts, you can move the shafts back and forth at least a combined .010".

Last time I set the end play on the bench, before final assembly I checked the depth of the shafts in the cover with a dial caliper.
Then during reassembly, and before tightening the thru bolts, I duplicated those shaft depths... which, in theory, made the end play settings identical to the bench settings.
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:08 PM   #111
Odysseus
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Question for Mr. Creeper!

Hey Creeper! I currently have my bike in various pieces all over my garage, corrosion issues I wanted to sort out...

There are currently no water pump or rocker cover leakage issues. In your opinion would it be wise to go ahead and prophylacticly (It's a big word, it means "rubber" in french ) reseal the rocker cover and rebuild the water pump while the bike is down anyways? Or should I just slap her back together and ride it like I stole it until there is an actual problem? Anything else that you recommend I do while I'm at it???

Thanks!

Oh, and PM on the way too re: seat stuff...
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:50 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus
Hey Creeper! I currently have my bike in various pieces all over my garage, corrosion issues I wanted to sort out...

There are currently no water pump or rocker cover leakage issues. In your opinion would it be wise to go ahead and prophylacticly (It's a big word, it means "rubber" in french ) reseal the rocker cover and rebuild the water pump while the bike is down anyways? Or should I just slap her back together and ride it like I stole it until there is an actual problem? Anything else that you recommend I do while I'm at it???

Thanks!

Oh, and PM on the way too re: seat stuff...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it... unless you're into proactive maintinance.

Besides, it only takes 30 minutes to get back to the point where you need to be for the pump and rocker cover work... unless you're really sloooooooooow.

Ciao,
C
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Old 01-31-2007, 04:32 AM   #113
bmwktmbill
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Hey guys,
What about this stuff?
Bill.

http://www.worldofpowersports.com/cg...8717-0004.html


Genuine Honda : Hondabond 4 ( 3.5 oz )



Semi-drying liquid gasket.

Seals irregular surfaces with a tough, elastic film.

Solvent-based for easy removal; resists gasoline.
( Sold each order 6 for one case )
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Old 02-01-2007, 05:14 AM   #114
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Bump.
Anybody used the Hondabond 4 for anything??
Bill
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The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
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Old 02-01-2007, 10:37 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill
Bump.
Anybody used the Hondabond 4 for anything??
Bill
I've never used it, but I understand it's a good general purpose sealant... better than most of the auto parts store products. I believe it's also made by Three Bond for Honda, but I'd have to call to confirm that.

C
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Old 02-02-2007, 03:41 AM   #116
bmwktmbill
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My friends at the Honda shop swear by it... but I always hate being the test pilot.
Bill.
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"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
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Old 02-22-2007, 09:52 PM   #117
potatoho
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Bringing my LC4 back to life. Today I resealed the rocker cover which had been leaking shortly after I sealed it last with loctite 515. No offense to those present but IMO that stuff sucks in this application. It was very easy to clean up which is a plus I guess. The old 515 which was sandwiched was transparently thin and very brittle. About like an onion peel. Near large flat areas, the excess had squished inside to form worm sized hard pieces. About the consistency of licorice. That was kind of a surpise, partly because I didn't think I used too much, and also because the pieces were pretty hard though easy to dislodge.

I had smeared some yamabond #4 from the outside when it started leaking in order to prolong the inevitable. Didn't seem like it was all that good at the time, but now that I am able to inspect it closeup, I see that it was really stuck on there. Darn I had a hard time removing that stuff and it was only a 4" area. So I decided not to use it because I figure it would be torture to clean it up if I have to do it over.

So what did I use.... surprise surprise "the right stuff" LOL. It may spring a leak, who knows. Don't know why but I dig this stuff. It's like playing with cheez-wiz. It's almost like a peanut butter consistency, doesn't feel like a regular RTV. I used it on my silencer flange the other day and I was able to smooth it over for quite a number of minutes. Takes a while to cure, but then it is quite rubbery and more stretchy than regular RTV.
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Old 02-22-2007, 10:18 PM   #118
SPEd600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill
Bump.
Anybody used the Hondabond 4 for anything??
Bill
I just used it to reseeal my rocker cover, also used some to coat the new generator cover gasket and valve covers, couldn't find the Hondabond HT so stuck with the Hondabond 4 and am real happy.
Last time I did the rocker cover I used permatex which has a way higher temp rating but eventually blew.
Hondabond 4 is way rubbery, it'll jiggle around in your hands once cured as opposed to permatex which just hardens, and it cleans off way easier... good stuff.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:07 AM   #119
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Sped,
Thanks for that post, I went down again last week and chatted up my buddy, the HONDA mechanic and he swears by the stuff. It is all he uses and he uses it for everything. They sold me a big tube for either $4 or $7. Can't remember. My pump parts are in. I do the deal this weekend.
Bill
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'02 KTM 640 Adventure-lowered
"On the road there are no special cases."
Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
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Old 02-23-2007, 12:27 AM   #120
SPEd600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwktmbill
Sped,
Thanks for that post, I went down again last week and chatted up my buddy, the HONDA mechanic and he swears by the stuff. It is all he uses and he uses it for everything. They sold me a big tube for either $4 or $7. Can't remember. My pump parts are in. I do the deal this weekend.
Bill
Good luck, let it cure for 72hrs.
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