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Old 10-23-2006, 03:28 PM   #76
ZZR_Ron
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They are all just PWM circuits, and pretty well work the same.

I don't know anything about the 18 buck circuit, the one i posted works very well!
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Old 10-23-2006, 09:00 PM   #77
RSL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZR_Ron
They are all just PWM circuits, and pretty well work the same.

I don't know anything about the 18 buck circuit, the one i posted works very well!
That's good to know. Maybe I can sell my Heat Troller and use the money to buy several PWM devices, to separately control the jacket, pants, seat, gloves, etc..

Anybody done this?
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Old 10-24-2006, 05:03 AM   #78
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I've built a few triple controllers, for some of the IBR riders.

They seem to work just fine, just make sure your bike has enough overhead to handle it!!
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:19 PM   #79
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Just wanted to post an update as to how my heated jacket has worked out. I wound up not using any sort of variable heat control, just an inline on/off switch. Thus far the choice has been moot, since the jacket has not gotten too hot for me, so I haven't had any need for the ability to dial it back any.

I used a fairly lightweight jacket that is intended for cross-country skiing. Not a lot of insulation; it's essentially an outer shell meant to be used over layers. It has a mesh lining throughout, including the entire length of the arms though, and thus I figured it would be well suited for the project in terms of being able to distribute the wire the way I wanted to.

I used about 40' of 30 AWG wire. 6 strands up and down the front, four strands in each arm, and 8 strands in the back. So far, it has not really worked as well as I had expected. Using it by itself under my Aerostich suit really doesn't keep me any warmer than just wearing a heavy fleece does. On days I've ridden in temperatures from 35 to 45 degrees F, I've also used a fleece jacket between the electric jacket and the 'stich. A bit of a hassle, but less hassle than wearing long underwear and having to change out of it in the bathroom when I get to work. It is kind of bulky though, and I'd prefer to be able wear just one jacket under the 'stich.

Since I wasn't satisfied with the amount of heat that the jacket was producing, I reduced the amount of wire in it by a few feet by taking some out of the back. This has not seemed to increase the amount of heat significantly, so I may try to reduce it some more and see if that works. I think right now I'm down to about 34 feet of wire, based on the fact that my multi-meter indicates that the jacket is producing 3.4 ohms of resistance.

While my body hasn't been really cold with the electric/fleece setup, the biggest disappointment was in my hands. Loads of people on this forum and others have sworn that if you keep your body core warm, your hands will be fine. Well, it don't work for me, Jack. My hands still get cold, and I have hand guards as well. Since I have over half a roll of the wire left, I'm trying to figure out how to make some heated gloves or glove liners next. Eventually, I think I'll have this worked out so that I'm warm enough with minimal extra layers. It's going to take some extra tweaking, though.

Hope this helps anyone who's thinking about trying to make some heated gear.
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:34 PM   #80
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The vests I made using the car seat heaters will cook you,
to the point where it would burn your skin if you ever had it next to your body. Maybe your wires are too far away, imbedded in the mesh?

I don't know if you can get them there, but those hand warmers
that you just rip open and produce heat work great!

I have to agree with other people. Overall, if you can keep your
core temperature up, your extremities should stay warm.

Your profile says you're in NY state, can't you get a heated car seat warmer there, and try that? Try Walmart, or if you're across the border ,Canadian Tire.

I paid 9 bucks for mine, and on the original one, just cut a hole in the crease to fit over my head, and wore it like that.

When you have it running, it should feel like a warm sunny day,
even at sub-zero temperatures.
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Old 11-10-2006, 06:02 PM   #81
Nesbocaj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerhonky
Just wanted to post an update as to how my heated jacket has worked out. I wound up not using any sort of variable heat control, just an inline on/off switch. Thus far the choice has been moot, since the jacket has not gotten too hot for me, so I haven't had any need for the ability to dial it back any.

I used a fairly lightweight jacket that is intended for cross-country skiing. Not a lot of insulation; it's essentially an outer shell meant to be used over layers. It has a mesh lining throughout, including the entire length of the arms though, and thus I figured it would be well suited for the project in terms of being able to distribute the wire the way I wanted to.

I used about 40' of 30 AWG wire. 6 strands up and down the front, four strands in each arm, and 8 strands in the back. So far, it has not really worked as well as I had expected. Using it by itself under my Aerostich suit really doesn't keep me any warmer than just wearing a heavy fleece does. On days I've ridden in temperatures from 35 to 45 degrees F, I've also used a fleece jacket between the electric jacket and the 'stich. A bit of a hassle, but less hassle than wearing long underwear and having to change out of it in the bathroom when I get to work. It is kind of bulky though, and I'd prefer to be able wear just one jacket under the 'stich.

Since I wasn't satisfied with the amount of heat that the jacket was producing, I reduced the amount of wire in it by a few feet by taking some out of the back. This has not seemed to increase the amount of heat significantly, so I may try to reduce it some more and see if that works. I think right now I'm down to about 34 feet of wire, based on the fact that my multi-meter indicates that the jacket is producing 3.4 ohms of resistance.

While my body hasn't been really cold with the electric/fleece setup, the biggest disappointment was in my hands. Loads of people on this forum and others have sworn that if you keep your body core warm, your hands will be fine. Well, it don't work for me, Jack. My hands still get cold, and I have hand guards as well. Since I have over half a roll of the wire left, I'm trying to figure out how to make some heated gloves or glove liners next. Eventually, I think I'll have this worked out so that I'm warm enough with minimal extra layers. It's going to take some extra tweaking, though.

Hope this helps anyone who's thinking about trying to make some heated gear.
Hmmm, at 3.4 ohms that means your jacket is putting out 54 watts.
So a Gerbings jacket has about 77 watts of power. Your wire is about 0.1ohm per ft, so you need about 57' of wire, no?
More wire, more resistance, more heat. Unless I have this backwards??
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Old 11-10-2006, 07:27 PM   #82
kerhonky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesbocaj
Hmmm, at 3.4 ohms that means your jacket is putting out 54 watts.
So a Gerbings jacket has about 77 watts of power. Your wire is about 0.1ohm per ft, so you need about 57' of wire, no?
More wire, more resistance, more heat. Unless I have this backwards??
Actually, I think you do have it backwards. Heat energy in Joules is current squared times resistance times time. So current has a much bigger effect on heat than resistance. Less wire equals less resistance, which equals more current, which equals more heat. Kind of counter intuitive.

Here's two examples assuming 12 volts for ease of computation:

30 feet of wire

3 ohms
4 amps
(4^2)*(3) = 48 Joules per second

40 feet of wire

4 ohms
3 amps
(3^2)*(4) = 36 Joules per second

All of that said, I'm a little embarassed to say that I checked my wiring with my multimeter when I got home tonight, and found that the jacket is producing infinite resistance. Hmmmmmm. Testing the various components revealed that there was no current getting through the switch I used. Making a straight connection without the switch seems to have restored the jacket to about 3.5 ohms. I went and plugged it into the bike and it definitely was producing more heat. We'll see how warm it keeps me tomorrow.
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kerhonky screwed with this post 11-10-2006 at 07:32 PM
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:22 AM   #83
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So less wire will get hotter but pull less wattage and cover a smaller area. More wire (same guage) will draw more wattage and cover a larger area but produce less heat?

Kev.
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:21 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harderkev
So less wire will get hotter but pull less wattage and cover a smaller area. More wire (same guage) will draw more wattage and cover a larger area but produce less heat?

Kev.
Not quite; you're right about the area covered and heat produced, but not about the wattage. Less wire will get hotter and pull more wattage but cover a smaller area. More wire will draw less wattage and cover a larger area but produce less heat.

Watts = volts x amps, so less wire will pull more wattage (less resistance means more current (amps), and voltage stays the same). Actually, now that I've puzzled it out on paper, heat energy in Joules per second is the same as watts. Heaven knows how much mental energy I've unnecessarily expended computing Joules when I could have just figured watts.
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:36 AM   #85
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Just got myself some 0.1mm nichrome wire (best i could get tbh) unfortunately its unsealed, but am thinking of useing some heat shrink sleeveing (since it shoudl be able to cope with 200odd degrees)

The other thing i'm thinking, because it can be usefull to use less wire, PWM units.. these work by switching on and off rapidly.. from 10% up to 90% on a simple type, now suposedly altering two of the resistors will alter the minimum and maximum "duty cycle" so if one was replaced you could go from 90% max to 40% max, this way greatly reduceing the ammount of wire needed and doign it safely..

does this make sense?

(another cx rider, and i lurve it!)
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Old 11-11-2006, 08:45 AM   #86
harderkev
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Check my math...

So we can caluculate using Ohm's Law that a Gerbing jacket liner (6.4 amp draw at 12 volts) has a resistance of 1.875 ohms?

I = V/R or V/I = R therefore 12/6.4 = 1.875 ohms.

Maybe I should have bought the 26ga wire at .041 ohms/ft. instead of the 30ga at .1 ohms/ft. to get more even heating and cover a larger area?

Kev.
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:27 PM   #87
kerhonky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harderkev
So we can caluculate using Ohm's Law that a Gerbing jacket liner (6.4 amp draw at 12 volts) has a resistance of 1.875 ohms?

I = V/R or V/I = R therefore 12/6.4 = 1.875 ohms.

Maybe I should have bought the 26ga wire at .041 ohms/ft. instead of the 30ga at .1 ohms/ft. to get more even heating and cover a larger area?

Kev.
I think that's right. 30 feet of the 26 ga wire would give you 1.23 ohms of resistance, drawing 9.75+ amps, and 117+ watts, which would probably be too hot. To get the same wattage as the Gerbing (6.4 x 12 or about 77 watts), you'd need about 45 feet of the 26 ga wilre.

Looking at that though, it doesn't seem to make sense. If I've computed it correctly, the heat goes up as the diameter of the wire increases and resistance goes down. But that would mean your battery cable should get practically molten, which it doesn't.

What gives?

By the way, I tried the electric jacket this morning with the straight hook up (no switch). It wasn't real cold, about 55 degrees, but with just a cotton work shirt, the jacket and my Road Crafter 2-piece I was fine. Apparently, electrically heated clothing works much better when there's electricity actually flowing through the wires.

Anyway, I don't think you have to get too hung up about even coverage. I'm 6'4", so I have a pretty long torso and long arms. 35 feet of wire was enough to put 6 strands of wire each in the front and back of the jacket, and 4 strands down the full length of each arm. The heat felt pretty evenly distributed to me this morning.
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Old 11-12-2006, 06:08 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerhonky
Looking at that though, it doesn't seem to make sense. If I've computed it correctly, the heat goes up as the diameter of the wire increases and resistance goes down. But that would mean your battery cable should get practically molten, which it doesn't.

What gives?
You battery cable isn't high resistance wire ;)

Still scrambleing for parts for the pwm module, only plsaes that do them you need a trade account for, not paying 10 ($20?) for an 80p part :/
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Old 11-12-2006, 06:35 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
Still scrambleing for parts for the pwm module, only plsaes that do them you need a trade account for, not paying 10 ($20?) for an 80p part :/
I bought my complete PWM here:
http://www.aseanexport.com/Division/...logyKit/MX.php
I had to buy two, so I may have one available once I decide I don't want a second controller. Scroll down to the MX033.

Another place you can buy them individually, but they were backordered, is here:
http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/MX033

I also bought more 30ga teflon wire than I think I'll need, so I may be able to offer a kit including the wire and PWM for anyone who might be interested.

Kev.
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Old 11-12-2006, 08:41 AM   #90
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Why doesn't the battery cable melt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
You battery cable isn't high resistance wire ;)

:/
This is a quick list of what's happening in the electrics:
Your voltage regulator is going to do it's best to keep the voltage across the battery (or wherever else you start your electrical system) constant - about 12 Volts (V)
Power, measured in watts, at the work load (motor, light bulb, resistance wire) is Watts (W) = Volts (V) x Amps (I)
If the volts are constant, thanks to the voltage regulator, the only way to increase or reduce power (which is equal to heat in your wires) is by changing current (I).
Current is dependent on voltage and resistance (I = V/R). Since voltage is constant, the only thing you can change is resistance. Lowering resistance will increase the current. You can lower resistance by using less wire, or a thicker wire. Think of it as a pipe, with resistance as friction. The less pipe a liquid has to travel through, the less the walls of pipe interfere. Likewise, a bigger pipe restricts flow less. So if you shorten the wires, more heat.

So why doesn't the battery cable heat up? The power in your system is put out in a serial fashion in the line. If you have a light hooked up, it glows brightly, but the more lights you hook up (in series), each glows dimmer. If you have different watt bulbs, each takes a different load. Now the final part - the voltage dropped in total along the line (series) equals the sum of the individual parts. It'd take a lot longer to explain, but basically your battery cable is accounting for almost no voltage drop, while the high resistance wire is dropping almost all the load. If you used a low resistance wire for the heater element, it'd be a whole different story - you'd be blistered and the battery cable would be heating (and your voltage regulator/generator would be toast if you didn't use a fuse) Thats also why a long run or small gauge of power cord to a high power motor may cause the motor to lug, as the voltage drop on the supply line becomes very significant (length of wire drives up it's resistance - same as using a higher resistance wire). If your battery cable had more resistance, it'd drop more voltage, and then it would begin dissipating power (heating up). If you feel such a supply cord trying to handle the load, you'll find it very warm or hot.
If the battery cable was the only thing on the circuit, then it'd have to dissipate all the power - if the cable has almost zero resistance then the watts would be something like Power (watts) = 12 / 0, which is almost unlimited and a very bad thing for your generator to try (user hint, it will try but will never make it - the power generated will roughly correlate to the dollar cost of fixing the damage)
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