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Old 12-06-2012, 09:44 AM   #49741
Sierra Thumper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzcoinc View Post
I agree, and add, this big fat pig Dual Sport craze is some of you guys fault:
The trend seems to be to use a perfectly good Dual Sport as an Adventure Touring bike by adding racks, giant tanks, big ass luggage, windscreens, phones, heated grips, more lights, GPS, ect. instead of using the bike for what it was intended for.
Just look at all the touring mods being done by your fellow inmates right HERE!
That being said, don't forget that many off road riding areas are being closed. So why does a manufacture need so many off road capable bikes in thier line up anyway and look at the stellar success bikes like the KLR and GS have.
I'm with ya on the lightening. I am shaving every once off my XRL. Less weight less fuel. Green baby green!

Just kidding of course, you know me, right?
Manufactures spend MILLIONS on marketing research. I'll bet they are giving the lions share of the market what it wants in thier new offerings.

Another thing to consider is that the weights of these new bikes just may be disinformation on the part of the manufacturer designed to get people talking about thier new bikes! Then they will just issue a correction later. Hell there is three pages right here about the Honda 250!

If you want to have fun off road try something like this! 220 pounds dripping wet at 35 TWO STROKE HP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawidad View Post
Agreed.

I think it is primarily for 2 reasons. First and foremost is the down turn in the world wide economy. Saving weight is expensive. Like the Husky Terra using steel for a subframe and swingarm vs aluminum. That's just one example.

Secondly, the green movement. Dual sports have to meet all road type emissions standards and that takes complex engineering and equipment. That's expensive and heavy (compared to having none of that). The XRL if not a legacy bike would never meet smog standards applied to newer designs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhitmore44 View Post
We have a hard enough time defining what "Dual Sport" means on this board let alone a manufacturer trying to decide for us There's those that want a full blown dirt bike that is just legal enough to connect trails or to get the bike from home to the dirt, without hassle. Then there are others that want to load the bike down with gear for camping and traveling. Even the traveling covers a broad spectrum from exploring the local back woods to travel multiple countries. So if they make a CRF250X barely legal there's going to be folks that say, wheres the lighting, wheres the beefier sub frame to support a rack, wheres the ability to handle two up, wheres the ability to run down the road at legal speed limits without vibrating my teeth out, and why is this seat no wider than a 2x4

I loved my WR450F for ridding trails, but if I wanted to run into town to grab a burger I'd run the risk of getting a ticket for no plate. I love the XRL for it's ability to take me pretty much anyplace that WR did with the possablity of a little more work, or maybe not as fast in the rough stuff. But the XRL is legal in every state for any road. I don't have to wonder if I'm on a country/forest/blm road. I can also jump on some black top if I want to and cover quite a few miles to get to a different ridding area. That light WR had no problems running the speed limit but at that speed it's lighter weight made it a bit twitchy. throw some cross wind n the mix and you'll wish for even more weight :) The person that owned my XRL before me was tryig to take weight off the bike. first thing I did was start adding it back on (buddy pegs, tail rack, windshield, bigger tail light).

In the "what dual support should Honda make" thread no one can agree because there is always on thing missing. What's missing is each one's definition of a dual sport.
You guys....why'd you go and have to add common sense and logic to my ranting ....funsuckers
You guys made very valid points........one being I imagine its true that most dual sports see more "dual use" than the 90% dirt mine see's. I used to consider my L heavy as a dual sport went, but since lightening it about 20lbs, and seeing where most of the other dual sports are weighing in at anymore, its starting to look like one of the lighter machines out there
I still think a 320lb dirt bike is too heavy tho.........
When are they going to bring 2 stroke dual sports back to the U.S.? They have'em in other parts of the world, the makers need to get them approved here, and get them to us
Like Fritz said, if you want light weight with good power, a 2 strokes the ticket. I'd be fine with a 270lb wet weight, 60rwhp 500cc 2 stroke dual sport
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:45 AM   #49742
Schultz!
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Thanks very much for the input Mental, not disputing your specs but are they from your own personal experience or cited from a reputable source ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzcoinc View Post
Maybe you are saying you did it this way, I'm not sure. The way to be 100% sure you have sufficent clearance is to disconnect the cam chain, set the valves open at the maximum lift, then crank the piston around. Or with the piston at TDC, use a dial indicator to measure the valve opening till they hit the piston ( measurement minus lift is clearance ). You can have zero, or close to it, clrearance between the valve and piston, this would yield highest compression available because the valve clearance recess in the piston is smallest ( if needed ), but in that case NOTHING can go wrong with the valve timming and no carbon build up either. The safest thing is to have enough valve to piston clearance so that the valves can be open at the max lift and the piston can clear them. I am sure JE gave the piston sufficent clearance, whatever that measures to be. Email them, I have before, they were happy to help.
I was thinking of performing the test as you just described but I think its physically impossible due to needing the valve cover on the head (rocker asy and such) making it impossible to access the camshaft to rotate it to the stopping point of lift at TDC.

The way I did it was with claying the piston and then rotating the engine for 1 complete cycle of the cam shaft removing the cylinder head and measuring the cross section of clay with some calipers.

I might just put the head back on and remove the valve springs and try to jusy use finger pressure and the dial indicator to (piston at TDC) get a more accurate measurement.

As far as "trusting" a piston manufacturer ask the folks who were buying there high comp Wesco pistons how there experience went.

here are some pics of the cross sections

intake

Exhaust

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Old 12-06-2012, 09:50 AM   #49743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post
if you want light weight with good power, a 2 strokes the ticket. I'd be fine with a 270lb wet weight, 60rwhp 500cc 2 stroke dual sport

Isn't the KTM 300 close to that range of power to weight ?
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:06 AM   #49744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultz! View Post
Thanks very much for the input Mental, not disputing your specs but are they from your own personal experience or cited from a reputable source ?

Both. I learned it first and have built many different engines for about 25 years or so. I like to stay on the safe side to allow for wear and timing chain stretch.

The XR is an interference engine. The valves will hit the piston if the camshaft is out of time. Most motorcycle engines and many new car engines are this way.

The clearance your measuring is during overlap when the valves are just slighty open.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:09 AM   #49745
Ben99r1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyoXR View Post
I also thought of that but the clamps use "Prevailing torque type lock nuts" and the instructions say to use oil, or better yet anti-seize, none the less I am carrying a T40 bit in my bag and will be consistently checking them.



Oh, Crap! I read the instructions...
They changed the clamp on those. My clamp is a machined clamp that has a threaded part into it. So I use loctite so it wouldn't back out. They use to send all four T40 head bolts. After you remove them once or twice they strip out. I had to grind them off once. If I were you I would change them out to all hex head bolts.

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Old 12-06-2012, 11:16 AM   #49746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post
I'd be fine with a 270lb wet weight, 60rwhp 500cc 2 stroke dual sport

Sorry, I doubt 2- stroke dual sports are in the near future...

Just drink the kool-aid and get a 2013 KTM 500 EXC. About 60rwhp and weighs about 250#'s less fuel.

The problem is the amount green the kool-aid costs....
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:18 AM   #49747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultz! View Post
Isn't the KTM 300 close to that range of power to weight ?

Its lighter, around 230lbs and the horse power is ~40ish which is fairly smooth for a smoker.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:19 AM   #49748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentalGuru View Post
Both. I learned it first and have built many different engines for about 25 years or so. I like to stay on the safe side to allow for wear and timing chain stretch.

The XR is an interference engine. The valves will hit the piston if the camshaft is out of time. Most motorcycle engines and many new car engines are this way.

The clearance your measuring is during overlap when the valves are just slighty open.
Cool! thanks for the clarification.. looks like this piston is gonna need to be machined .

Many moons ago I held a ASE master cert and was a Chrysler dealer tech. Plymouth lasers with the mitsubishi 2.0 motors taught allot of us newbies back then about interference motots (break a timing belt or jump a few teeth and the engine eats the valves).

Yup found that out a few min ago with the piston at TDC and no valve spring the clearance is like .245 so its happening more then likely at the very late end of the cams exhaust duration as the piston is coming back up.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:45 AM   #49749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultz! View Post
Cool! thanks for the clarification.. looks like this piston is gonna need to be machined .

Many moons ago I held a ASE master cert and was a Chrysler dealer tech. Plymouth lasers with the mitsubishi 2.0 motors taught allot of us newbies back then about interference motots (break a timing belt or jump a few teeth and the engine eats the valves).

Yup found that out a few min ago with the piston at TDC and no valve spring the clearance is like .245 so its happening more then likely at the very late end of the cams exhaust duration as the piston is coming back up.
Did you degree the cam in???

Funny you say the master ASE thing I was a one and a Chrysler master tech for years. Lazers had big issues but thats an easy job compared to a bad belt on a twin turbo AWD Stealth. At least the 2.2 and 2.5's could freewheel. The Lotus head 2.5 Spirit RT I had could freewheel thankfully. The timing belts didn't last very long but it was fun.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:14 PM   #49750
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Not yet, have the degree wheel on it and TDC determined, but was still racking my brain on the proper way to measure the cam center line.

I probably should get that verified its correct before biting the bullet and getting the piston machined. Thanks for pointing that out!


As far as the twin turbo stealths go, the shop foreman got stuck with those (thank god!)
and your also a lucky bastard always wanted to get my hands on one of those Spirit RT heads.

You want a real nightmare shortly after leaving the Chrysler side of things I went to go work at a Subaru / Mazda dealer,
the Subarus were/are a absolute dream to work with, so being the new guy I got stuck with all the RX7s. Lemme tell ya turbos in them are no fun, then again nor were the 6.0 or 6.4 Super Dutys when I worked for Ford.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:29 PM   #49751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra Thumper View Post
You guys....why'd you go and have to add common sense and logic to my ranting ....funsuckers
You guys made very valid points........one being I imagine its true that most dual sports see more "dual use" than the 90% dirt mine see's. I used to consider my L heavy as a dual sport went, but since lightening it about 20lbs, and seeing where most of the other dual sports are weighing in at anymore, its starting to look like one of the lighter machines out there
I still think a 320lb dirt bike is too heavy tho.........
When are they going to bring 2 stroke dual sports back to the U.S.? They have'em in other parts of the world, the makers need to get them approved here, and get them to us
Like Fritz said, if you want light weight with good power, a 2 strokes the ticket. I'd be fine with a 270lb wet weight, 60rwhp 500cc 2 stroke dual sport
See the Husky 310.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:34 PM   #49752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultz! View Post
Thanks very much for the input Mental, not disputing your specs but are they from your own personal experience or cited from a reputable source ?



I was thinking of performing the test as you just described but I think its physically impossible due to needing the valve cover on the head (rocker asy and such) making it impossible to access the camshaft to rotate it to the stopping point of lift at TDC.

The way I did it was with claying the piston and then rotating the engine for 1 complete cycle of the cam shaft removing the cylinder head and measuring the cross section of clay with some calipers.

I might just put the head back on and remove the valve springs and try to jusy use finger pressure and the dial indicator to (piston at TDC) get a more accurate measurement.

As far as "trusting" a piston manufacturer ask the folks who were buying there high comp Wesco pistons how there experience went.

here are some pics of the cross sections

intake

Exhaust
Oh NO! Not the Wesco conspirary again!
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Fritzcoinc
96 XR650L, 96 Guzzi Sport, 07 BMW K1200GT,
86 Husky 400 XCE, 00 Husky Te 610 e, 1999 Husky TC610 SM, 2000 Cagiva GC; Google: TX7
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:29 PM   #49753
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Well after allot of trial and error I found out something interesting!
The person working on this motor is not the only thing that's retarded .

cam card

Intake 104 deg Exhaust 105.5deg

reality

Intake 108 Exhaust 96.5

looks like this is contributing to my less then ideal exhaust valve clearance now I need to advance the cam, tryed one tooth forward on the cam sprocket but seemed too much (frogot to write numbers down) i guess its time to slot the cam sprocket unless any one has any ideas.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:57 PM   #49754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schultz! View Post
Well after allot of trial and error I found out something interesting!
The person working on this motor is not the only thing that's retarded .

cam card

Intake 104 deg Exhaust 105.5deg

reality

Intake 108 Exhaust 96.5

looks like this is contributing to my less then ideal exhaust valve clearance now I need to advance the cam, tryed one tooth forward on the cam sprocket but seemed too much (frogot to write numbers down) i guess its time to slot the cam sprocket unless any one has any ideas.
Are you taking into account the duration is measured at .04" ( thats inches ) of lift? Thats what the service manual sez anyway.
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86 Husky 400 XCE, 00 Husky Te 610 e, 1999 Husky TC610 SM, 2000 Cagiva GC; Google: TX7
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:08 PM   #49755
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I was using "DEGREEING IN YOUR CAMSHAFT" guide at Web cams using .050 lift from "zero" as the measurement points per the instructions so for my case see below.

Intake = 34deg BTDC(A) 70.5 ABDC(B)

Exhaust = 51deg BBDC(A) 38 Deg ATDC(B)

Formula for intake is [(A+B+180) /2] -A = intake lobe center
Formula for Exhaust [(A+B+180) /2] -B = exhaust lobe center


http://www.webcamshafts.com/
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