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Old 01-28-2003, 12:00 PM   #31
Cat0020
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Cool2

Quote:
Said jimjib:
Cat...I think you are still not understanding the point I am making.

A shock has an optimum sag setting in which it works best...period. Your bike may handle better on the street because you have dropped the ride height .. but thats a completely different issue from how well the shock absorbs bumps.
I think the point that you are trying to make is that my suspension sag setting is completely off your grasp.

I never mentioned that I lowered my seat height, if anything my on-road KTM Adventure has a higher seat height than that of a KTM Adventure with "factory or off-road" suspension sag.

A shock with optimum sag setting can NOT be best for everybody under all condition.. heck I would think even the temperature outside makes a difference how suspension perform.

Unless you specify your riding condition and riding style, there is no ideal suspension sag setting that others can offer you, nor should you offer any advice if you are not able to give example of what you have done in person.
I am trying to offer my experience in setting up my suspesion sag for my bike to be ridden on-pavement, what you are trying to acheive may be a totally different thing, but since you never mentioned what you are trying to achieve, how could you judge what I am doing is not ideal to suit my situation?

Have a nice day :cool3
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Old 01-28-2003, 03:19 PM   #32
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Don't get pissy son ... I am not criticizing you on the way you setup your suspension ..you may be way more experienced than I at this stuff. Its just that some of what you say, fly's in the face of what I have always heard and experienced....dont take it personal.


Yes, a desert racer is probably going to want stiffer suspension than the guy cruising up the fire roads...but that doesn't mean he achieves it by have cranking in so much preload and going to springs that are so stiff that he has only 1/2 inch of sag. Can we agree on that... or am I all wet? Someone else jump in
here if I have it wrong.
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Old 01-28-2003, 06:41 PM   #33
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jimjib,

you are correct. sag setting has nothing to do with suspension stiffness. sag is simply a measure of how much of the total suspension travel is used just supporting the bike and rider, at rest. you want the suspension to be able to not only compress when encountering bumps or impacts but it should also be able to allow the wheel to move down into depressions and follow the road surface. everyone has seen the forks extend under acceleration. now imagine that the forks had so much preload or springs so stiff that the forks (or shock) was completely topped out. what would happen then? suspension does more than absorb impacts. it gives control of the wheels as they follow the road surface both up and down. this does have impacts on handling both on the road and off.

once again as i've tried to explain and you atleast understand. sag is a given, set, more or less fixed thing. sag allows the suspension to be in it's "sweet spot" as someone put it. this is where the suspension was designed to be as a starting point before any movement.

ideally you want to be using most of your available suspension travel under the most extreme situations that you ride. this can be altered by valving and spring rate changes. ideally you don't really want a bike with 12" of suspension travel as a road only bike. if that was an advantage you would see long travel on dedicated road bikes and road race bikes. the factories would build them that way if it worked. look at the LC4 compared to the Duke as an example. in fact quite a few people have converted off road bikes into supermotard style road bikes and one thing that is often done is to shorten the stock suspension, change to stiffer springs and revalve. even then the sag would still be set at ~ 1/4-1/3 of the total remaining suspension strokes length.

sag, in general terms, is not really a variable. the only real reason that preload adjustment exist on bikes is to allow you to compensate for weight in order to set the sag at the appropriate amount. the real variables are valving and spring rate. many people mistakenly use preload in an attempt to create stiffer spring rates. this appears to work on the surface as it does appear to stiffen the suspension but it hasn't changed the springs rate it has only compressed the spring and used up some of it's compressable length. once again, i have used this technique myself and it works to a degree. although it's not the techically correct solution, i'm happy with the results on that bike. it all depends on your perspective.
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Old 01-29-2003, 08:02 AM   #34
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Randy..........exactly!
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Old 01-29-2003, 08:05 AM   #35
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"sag, in general terms, is not really a variable. the only real reason that preload adjustment exist on bikes is to allow you to compensate for weight in order to set the sag at the appropriate amount."

I think Randy's statement above... say's it all in a nut shell.
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Old 01-29-2003, 03:57 PM   #36
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Well, would you two agree that there is not need to set the suspension sag on a on-pavement machine the same way as an off-road machine?

There is no need have the same amount of negative suspension travel on the pavement as compare to off-road, at the same time you increase the usable positive suspension travel and have less fork dive during hard braking. Use the suspension effectively according to suit the purpose of its use.

At least the above has been my experience with my suspension sag setting for on-pavement riding on my KTM Adventure.
Give it a try before you mock it, you may just find your KTM Adventure more capable that you ever thought on pavement.

:):
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Old 01-29-2003, 04:48 PM   #37
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Leave the springs alone and just wind up the compression dampening on the front end,easier to do anyway.
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Old 01-29-2003, 05:37 PM   #38
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Old 01-29-2003, 06:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Said Cat0020:
Well, would you two agree that there is not need to set the suspension sag on a on-pavement machine the same way as an off-road machine?

There is no need have the same amount of negative suspension travel on the pavement as compare to off-road, at the same time you increase the usable positive suspension travel and have less fork dive during hard braking. Use the suspension effectively according to suit the purpose of its use.

At least the above has been my experience with my suspension sag setting for on-pavement riding on my KTM Adventure.
Give it a try before you mock it, you may just find your KTM Adventure more capable that you ever thought on pavement.

:):
yes i agree with the first part. thats why the factories don't all use the same suspensions on their various bikes. but if your bike has 12" of travel you should have somewhere around 3" of sag regardless of the intended use. if thats to "boingy" for you then stiffen up the springs and/or adjust you damping. or see below.

and yes the second part will work too. as i've said, i've done it myself and was satisfied. but if money were no object and you were always, only going to use that machine as a street ride, and you really wanted the optimum suspension setup, i would pull the forks and shock off and send them to Lindeman engineering. have them shorten both to give you no more than 8" of travel, and work their magic with the springs and valving to suit your weight and riding style. or you could just trade it in on a duke. now your talking! a duke for the street and the adventure for the dirt. sounds like a perfect duo to me.

and as for the third part, i'm definitely not mocking it. i have scared more than one sport bike pilot on a real twisty road while riding my LC4 so i'm well aware of it's on-road capabilities. the narrow dual-sport tires are more of a limiting factor than the suspension. i probably ride about a 50/50 split between road and gravel/dirt roads (no serious dirt stuff). that's why i love the bike; it's true, go anywhere ability. when out exploring i never have to turn around just because the pavement ends i just gas it and YAHOO! but if i was never planning to leave the pavement i would definitely prefer the duke for pure fun and on-road ability. and anyway, as i stated earlier (too) many post ago if your happy with the performance with your setup then just say fuck it and ride the damn thang! it's all in your perspective anyway.
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Old 01-29-2003, 07:46 PM   #40
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Talking I wanna play too....

Randy's right.

I think jimjib has given up at this point.

There is a ballpark range of rider sag for all motorcycles. Dirt, street, and anything else. 1/4 to 1/3 total travel. Don't matter if you have luggage or not, if your in the dirt or in the street. You can screw around with preload a bit within that 1/4 to 1/3 range for conditions, but if you go too far either way, you can mess up the steering geometry. If your rider sag is 1/2 your travel, or if your rider sag is 1/10 your travel, it will suck no matter what kind of riding you are doing.

I think jimjib was trying to get those ballpark numbers, before this thread went haywire.
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Old 01-29-2003, 08:15 PM   #41
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Re: I wanna play too....

Quote:
Said ShaftEd:
Randy's right.

I think jimjib has given up at this point.

There is a ballpark range of rider sag for all motorcycles. Dirt, street, and anything else. 1/4 to 1/3 total travel. Don't matter if you have luggage or not, if your in the dirt or in the street. You can screw around with preload a bit within that 1/4 to 1/3 range for conditions, but if you go too far either way, you can mess up the steering geometry. If your rider sag is 1/2 your travel, or if your rider sag is 1/10 your travel, it will suck no matter what kind of riding you are doing.

I think jimjib was trying to get those ballpark numbers, before this thread went haywire.
I would disagree, suspension sag should be optimized according to riding style, terrain and load, just like compression rate and rebound rate. if not needed to be adjusted what even bother to have the adjustability for suspension sag?

There is no crying in motorcycling..

For the sake of avoiding conflict, let's say that the sag should be set to a constant..
Let's get some other suggestions to JimJib about setting up his suspension sag.. anyone else have any specific ways that their suspension sag is setup to suit their riding?
What are your numbers for your suspension sag?
How does your suspension sag setting benifit your type of riding?
Was that any better?


:):
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Old 01-29-2003, 08:58 PM   #42
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Not that any of this will pertain to all of you, but someone may find some use from it.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf sag.pdf (70.6 KB, 172 views)
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Old 01-29-2003, 09:30 PM   #43
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jimjib, i'm with you man, i give

i hope that you got the info that i tried to relate to you, before this thread went to shit, and it was of some help. i think your original question was for a specific sag measurement and since i'm not in town at the moment i can't measure it but i think i remember it was right around 3" but i know it was between 1/4-1/3 of the total travel. it's been a while so can't remember exactly. you may also want to try searching or posting on ktmtalk.com if you need more specific info.
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Old 01-29-2003, 09:47 PM   #44
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Re: Re: I wanna play too....

Quote:
Said Cat0020:
I would disagree, suspension sag should be optimized according to riding style, terrain and load, just like compression rate and rebound rate. if not needed to be adjusted what even bother to have the adjustability for suspension sag?



:):
i know, i know, i'm a glutton for punishment but i just can't help myself:):

strictly speaking you don't have an adjustment for sag. you have an adjustment for preload. having proper sag is an indicator of whether or not you have the proper amount of preload and you use that preload adjustment to correct your preload so that your sag is in the proper predetermined range (again 1/4-1/3 of total suspension travel). if you have too much sag then you are using too little preload for your loaded weight, conversely if you have too little sag then you have too much preload dialed in. lets just say that i weigh 145 lbs and jimjib weighs 210 lb, we each would need a very different preload adjustment (optimally different spring rates) to dial in our sag to the prescribed number. now say i had mine set properly for me. then i added aluminum bags full of shit and my theoretically fat wife (not really, fortunately she only weighs 92 lb) on the back. i would now need to dial in more preload to compensate and regain my sag settings. this is why suspension designers allow for spring preload adjustments on even basic el cheapo shocks.
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"some might call it a 'midlife crisis', I prefer to call it a renaissance of thought and action"... "Life is too short to do anything other than that about which you are absolutely passionate."..."Adventure is a frame of mind, set upon by action, not defined by equipment."..."It all boils down to your ability to say "SCREW IT" and really mean it"....Randy

Randy screwed with this post 01-29-2003 at 10:02 PM
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Old 01-29-2003, 10:57 PM   #45
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Randy...you are a glutton for punishment

But I admire your persistance.
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