For those who did the MotoMan break-in on the street

[cap]

Originally Posted by Walub

I am buying a new to me 2005 weestrom. It is a demo unit with about 430 miles on it. Is all the benifit of a hard breakin gone at this point?

Yes and No. If the engine was used too gently, the cylinder walls might be glazed, and the engine might have high oil consumption for the rest of its life. But that's very unlikely. Partly because people who test ride a moto tend to use it hard. Partly because Suzuki builds with fine tolerances and good materials, and glazing is rare. Regarding the buildup of ridges in the cylinder walls at the stopping point of the piston, you can change that by using higher revs. Eventually, those ridges will wear away.

Originally Posted by Walub

Should I ask the shop to change the oil before I pick it up?

Yes. Or change it yourself if they won't. Oil breaks down with time as well as mileage. That oil might be over a year old.

[Walub]

Originally Posted by cap

Yes and No. If the engine was used too gently, the cylinder walls might be glazed, and the engine might have high oil consumption for the rest of its life. But that's very unlikely. Partly because people who test ride a moto tend to use it hard. Partly because Suzuki builds with fine tolerances and good materials, and glazing is rare. Regarding the buildup of ridges in the cylinder walls at the stopping point of the piston, you can change that by using higher revs. Eventually, those ridges will wear away.




Yes. Or change it yourself if they won't. Oil breaks down with time as well as mileage. That oil might be over a year old.

Cool thanks for the advice. I will try to get them to change it.

[Sasquatch]

I have been building motorcycle engines for the street and track for over 20 years as a side business.

I will NOT warranty my motors if they are babied.

I will not even start it for the first time unless I am ready to ride and flog it.

Idling a new motor is Baaaaaad.

[Xldevil]

Originally Posted by Dixter

Some great info in this thread.

I broke-in my HD Dyna Sport as per the HD manual/salesman's advice for the first 1000 miles during which time it had used a fair, but not unreasonable amount of oil (something like 250ml I think). After the 1st service the stage 1 was fitted after which I ragged the tits off the motor - oil consumption didn't decrease.

At 2000 miles I had the 1550cc/95cu" big bore plus SE204 cams fitted - I then re-broke in the motor (coz of new bores/pistons etc) as per the engine builder's recommendations - ie LOADS of full throttle acceleration up to approx 5000rpm (limiter's at 6800) and long, downhill throttle-shut decelleration. The motor now burns aboslutely NO oil whatsoever, is smoother, much much faster (it'll just about out-drag a BM R1100S up to 80mph) and runs like a very sweet dream.

I'd say Motoman knows his stuff.

Hi.
Now that I soon will need to brake in my 1250cc tuber Buell Revperf upgrade,I'm thinking about trying the motoman way.
But for me there are some questions left.
Motoman says to completely warm up the bike before that hard breaking in.
How can I do this for my air cooled engine without prolonged idling or gentle riding for more than the first 20 miles,which are so important for ring sealing and should be used for hard accelerations?
Now that we have winter in Germany it will take at least 15 miles to get my engine completely warm.
Thanks for any informations that will help me in my confusion and a merry Christmas to all of you!
Ralph
P.S. Sorry for any mistakes or strange verbalizations.
I'm not a native speaker!

[cycletlh]

The key is that the motor is up to normal temps before "hard" riding. A couple of options for you: 1. Start the bike in the garage and let it run at approximately 2,000 rpms for 5 - 10 minutes until warm. (A new, tight tolerance engine comes up to temp pretty quickly) 2. Ride the bike until warm being sure not to lug the engine. On the Buell, rpms in the 2,000 to 3,000 range. The 20 minutes that this may take should not hurt the process.

On our stock car racing engines we must run them in the shop for 20 minutes @ 2,000 rpms to break the camshaft in. We then change the oil and take it to the track. At the track it is pretty much some slow laps to get it warm and then race it. Any failures are a result of improper machining/assembly.

Merry Christmas and good luck!

[666]

I think that modern engines made to much better tolerances ( and better engineering!)than it used to be. It's probably doesn't matter anymore how you "break it in".
New bikes tested at a factory and faulty engines mostly found right away based on torque/hp/emissions/vibrations/noise in the engine etc results. Don't forget that sensors and electronics are much better nowdays and cheap too.
Non of the used bikes I had or still have in last 6 years never required any oil added or burnt oil. Non of these bikes had described above break in procedure. It includes bmw, kawasaki, suzuki and cagiva. I generally change oil every 6K miles.

[turbodieseli4i6]

I like to break-in my engines by loading them up good and engine breaking to seat the rings. I will not keep any engine I’m breaking-in at a constant RPM for very long until it has a lot of miles on it.

I’m a firm believer your odds increase significantly of using more oil if you baby the engine during break-in. But never run the same rpm for very long while breaking it in.

[996DL]

Originally Posted by cap

On a related note, Suzuki recommends the first valve adjustment on the DL1000 at 15000 miles. I did mine at 7000 miles, and found that one of the valves was too tight. I recommend doing the first valve adjustment soon after 5000 miles... Cap

If you ride your new DL1000 with moderation, you'll probably find only one or two valves slightly tight at 15,000 miles, generally not much more than 1 thous. under the minimum spec, nothing to worry about. Research the two Vstrom forums: VSRI and Stromtrooper and decide whether to have the shop or yourself return just the few tight valves back to a minimum clearance. Par for the course, fast and simple for the shop (not many cams to pull), easy money for them as they might just charge you a flat rate and only have one or two that actually needed adjustment.

The DL motor is well seated in at 15,000 miles and the clearances won't generally change a lot in the miles ahead. However if you take the time to research the forums, you'll see that further settling in of the valves will continue to close the clearances SLIGHTLY as the miles continue. You may come to the conclusion at this first valve adjustment, especially if you're performing the work yourself, to shim all eight valves to the middle of the clearance specs, leaving room for the recession of the valves into the seats without falling below the minimum specs for MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF MILES.

In other words,if you or the shop (get precise records of the before and after clearances from the shop) goes to the trouble of shimming to the middle clearances on all 8 valves, don't even bother checking again for 30,000 or 40,000 miles as you've left room for this well broken in motor to slowly close clearances, without exceeding the minimum specs. Your call... Break it in on a PREMIUM mineral oil, perhaps Motul or Maxima and then switch to a semi or full synthetic, my preference was Royal Purple's "Max-Cycle" 10/40 as it vastly improved the 1st to 2nd upshift.

PS: IT'S NOT A SEGMENT BARGAIN, IT'S JUST A GREAT BIKE...
996DL

[Slaghammer]

First oil & filter change at 35 miles on my KLR. LOTS of break in crap in the filter. Sure, the filter will eventually pick up the particles but until it does, that crap is still flowing in the bearings etc. Early oil and filter changes make sense to me. 15,000 miles on the KLR to date and no oil loss between changes.

[wbedient]

I did the motoman method on my new 2008 versys.

At the dealer, I let the bike warm up for a few minutes (at idle) after signing the paperwork. Then I rode a route that was 20 miles long on the way home. During this time I was hard on the gas through 1, 2 and 3rd gear and used lots of engine braking. I also had my wife ride on the back so the engine was under some serious loads under accel/decel.

Changed the oil at 20 miles and it had nasty metal bits. Put a new filter (with magnet) and oil in it. Can't remember what oil I used, but I do remeber it was a little thicker than what was reccomended. Repeated the hard loads on the engine (hard accel and engine braking) for another 100 miles and changed oil/filter again. Put in the oem recomended oil this time and road the bike a little less violently for the next 100 miles and then changed oil again at like 500 miles.

Bike runs great and I'm really happy with the motoman method. Versys does not use any oil, but my buell was broken in "by the book" and it uses a little oil.

[Old Baldy]

OK, there's a fair amount of misinformation here, in terms of the old / often used suggestions to "ride it like you stole it' and "rev the piss out of it" and "rev it high to get the piston rings up high in the bore" and what not.

The reality is that one should break the bike it properly. That does NOT mean...rev the shit out of the thing, or bounce it off the redline, or anything of the sort.

What it means is to get a good ring seal, by loading the rings with moderate to high throttle in short bursts, but NOT sustained high RPM. Break-in achieves three goals....

1. Gain a good ring seal in the bore (by loading the rings with moderately hard throttle, as quickly as possible on a fresh/new engine)

2. Relieving internal metallurgical stresses within the pistons, rods, etc WITHOUT over-stressing them by excessive, sustained, heat. Frequent heat cycles (short bursts of acceleration followed by cooling down overrun (closed throttle) is best...NOT sustained high RPM which quickly builds up high heat on a fresh engine.

3. some minor amount of polishing/burnishing of friction faces (although with today's fine machining and casting tolerances, this is now a less important aspect of break-in.)

So...the best method is to start the motor and check for oil leaks quickly, but do NOT let if idle for minutes on end. Get riding ASAP, and give the motor some fairly strong bursts of throttle, with short coasting cool-offs in between. Rev it up to 75% of redline RPM, no higher.

Give it frequent 3/4 to full throttle for a few seconds at a time, from 1/3 redline RPM to 3/4 redline RPM...in 3rd or 4th gear.

Ensure the motor does NOT get excessively hot. You do NOT want it to relieve all internal stresses too quickly, as that can actually warp a piston very, very slightly...enough to reduce your ring seal, and increase blowby and reduce compression and power. You want the motor to cool down between spurts of acceleration.

Do not let the motor idle for long periods during break-in. (Try not to get stuck in stop-start traffic). Avoid long, steady, speeds like a constant 70 MPH on the highway, etc.

Change the oil SOON - within 20-50 miles to remove any manufacturing debris or initial metals from the polishing that happens when the motor first runs. Change oil again at 200-300 miles after break-in.....and you're done.

Ride the piss out of it and enjoy.

[R3B]

Well it keeps on comming back, that dealer hoax :-)


The Motoman breaking your engine, is just posted to get the ailing rivision business out of its dip, engines now being so good they break down very seldom...


Just Think about it, why would a piston ring not bead in, if at first it is loaded just slightly?


As soon as you are through the first 1000 Miles, and are mechanically sound to just gas it, the rings will get their load, even if you buy it from an old lady, as soon as you put the prassure on it, they will bed, no doubt about it.


But by thrashing your bike the Motoman way, you scar the bearings and more importantly the gearsurfaces, which eventually will lead to pitting by uneven loads.

Why do you think conrod for racing engines get polished instaed of scruffed, just think about it?


My personal way to ensure longivity of all parts of my engines.
I have done 400.000 with my first GS engine without having to open it.
and 600.000 with the second gearbox (first had the omious 3gear fault)


Oh and everybody is free to ruin their engine the motoman way, so i'm just stating the obvious, from a metalurgical viewpoint, and not trying to feul a discussion. So do it your way if you want, i'm just warning it ain't the best way to get a smooth running engine, feel the harsh gearchanges on a motoman thrashed bike for instance. The observation of *particles* in the oil says enough, there are surfaces being molested until particles break out of it under duress...

There is no need to be afraid of ring seals not bedding in, as soon as they get really loaded afterthe initial 1000 miles, they will bed in anyhow, its just mechanics... (not wizardry)

[Old Baldy]

Originally Posted by R3B

Well it keeps on comming back, that dealer hoax :-)


The Motoman breaking your engine, is just posted to get the ailing rivision business out of its dip, engines now being so good they break down very seldom...


Just Think about it, why would a piston ring not bead in, if at first it is loaded just slightly?


As soon as you are through the first 1000 Miles, and are mechanically sound to just gas it, the rings will get their load, even if you buy it from an old lady, as soon as you put the prassure on it, they will bed, no doubt about it.


But by thrashing your bike the Motoman way, you scar the bearings and more importantly the gearsurfaces, which eventually will lead to pitting by uneven loads.

Why do you think conrod for racing engines get polished instaed of scruffed, just think about it?


My personal way to ensure longivity of all parts of my engines.
I have done 400.000 with my first GS engine without having to open it.
and 600.000 with the second gearbox (first had the omious 3gear fault)


Oh and everybody is free to ruin their engine the motoman way, so i'm just stating the obvious, from a metalurgical viewpoint, and not trying to feul a discussion. So do it your way if you want, i'm just warning it ain't the best way to get a smooth running engine, feel the harsh gearchanges on a motoman thrashed bike for instance. The observation of *particles* in the oil says enough, there are surfaces being molested until particles break out of it under duress...

There is no need to be afraid of ring seals not bedding in, as soon as they get really loaded afterthe initial 1000 miles, they will bed in anyhow, its just mechanics... (not wizardry)

There is too much tuner builder and leakdown proof of results to dispute the suggestion to load the rings and provide a quick ring seal. Many, many race or hot engine builders have come to this conclusion over the years, with strong leakdown tests and HP results to prove the benefits of this approach. Ask the fast guys, (or rather, their builders) what works...and you will almost always get some variation of the high-load/heat cycling approach to break-in.

My point in my post above is that engines still need to be broken in! Fresh engines are sensitive to the metallurgical stresses within their components that need to be relieved in a controlled manner. Running brand new motors to maximum sustain RPM and full throttle is NOT the way to do this....and never will be. This has nothing to do with manufacturing tolerances, or "wearing" an engine in, etc....but to do with the internal metal molecular stress in the pistons, rods, crank, etc that result from the manufacturing and forging processes, and that need to be relieved over time, without EXCESSIVE heat.

But....this needs to be balanced by the strong desire to get a ring seal done BEFORE blowby deposits from combustion pressure leask past the rings and varnishes up the fresh cross-hatch on the cylinder bores. Once THAT occurs (due to lack of combustion pressure on the rings....then you basically are stuck and have to either hone the bores clean of the varnish buildup and run higher ring pressure (by greater throttle usage), or forever live with the less than great ring seal, and the resulting lower compression, faster oil contamination, lower HP, increased heat, etc caused by the added blowby.

[R3B]

Originally Posted by Old Baldy

But....this needs to be balanced by the strong desire to get a ring seal done BEFORE blowby deposits from combustion pressure leask past the rings and varnishes up the fresh cross-hatch on the cylinder bores. Once THAT occurs (due to lack of combustion pressure on the rings....then you basically are stuck and have to either hone the bores clean of the varnish buildup and run higher ring pressure (by greater throttle usage), or forever live with the less than great ring seal, and the resulting lower compression, faster oil contamination, lower HP, increased heat, etc caused by the added blowby.

Sorry but im rebuilding XT's for 30 years now, and its poppycock, thet varnish story, or even the glazing story, especcially since lead has been taken out in 1988 there is hardly any contamination in the engine.

My Beemer has done 400.000 km before i pulled it, because i could not believe it would run much longer with the original chains and main bairings...

When i pulled it, it consumed 1 litre in 8000 km (eighttausend), so the excessive oilconsumption story with conscientieos breaking in, is one for the books of the Brothers Grimm.

The only thing really under limit were the camlobe followers, they had some pitting, the rest was according to the workshop for about another 100.000 minimum, some slack on the mainbearings but none to worry about.



Piston after 400.000 kms with "feminin-breaking" and it still looks real nice, and blowby is also very small, even though a GS uses quite some oil the first 50K


You just have to make sure you load it when it is ready to be loaded fully, warm it up, and thrash it when warm, and my beemer has had some work to do...

Off, (Bilstain)


and On-road (Circuit) and my girls beemer doesn't sip oil neither.

[Old Baldy]

I'm happy that your technique works for you.

Frankly,and with all due respect, I'll take the word of tuners/builders like Cameron, Davidson, and many. many others who have experimented and come to similar conclusions, over the average home tuner any day.

What are your leakdown numbers? Have you actually compared and measured them with the different techniques? If not, I'm not sure how you come to any conclusion of relative merits, or at least refute the predominant evidence that their conclusions reach after years of rebuilding tens/hundreds of motors.

http://webspace.webring.com/people/u...n/breakin.html

http://www.brocksperformance.com/tech_breakin.htm

http://www.ktm950.info/how/breakin/engine_breakin.html