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Old 08-04-2013, 11:09 AM   #18166
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Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
How's that working out for you so far?



Here's the truth:

- We're not Europe.
- We're not taking anything back, it's taking us.
- You will NEVER convince the avg American car driver to respect or give a shit about motorcycles, period.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:12 AM   #18167
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Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post
Here's the thing: I very much see where you're coming from. I feel it, too.

But: It took Transportation Alternatives two decades to build up an org, and a constituency, just so that they were ready when the right people came into power.

The pendulum swings both ways. Right now it's pretty far away from us. That means it's going to com back, soon. Maybe with the next mayor. And, when the door opens a crack, will we be ready to pry it open the rest of the way? Or, will we just watch as the opportunity sails by for another 10 years?
Pendulum's gonna swing in our favor....? Not gonna happen. I'll bet you $ on this. 5 years from now...

Bicycles are happy and friendly, but people did view them as a nuisance. Funny thing was, they were true freedom. Now the city controls bicycling, and it's no longer free (I mean free as in unregulated/un-policed). Either way it's apples to oranges. Replace the 70s'/80s awesome bike messenger samurai code with dingbats on citibank girlie bikes with ipad windshields and we're all good I suppose.

Motorcycles are bad, mean, loud, and deadly, oh and the riders have a death wish. They wake up babies in the middle of the night, they cut the line and it's unfair in traffic. Not as sunshiny as bicycles see.....

Genie's out of bottle. Goodbye old NYC.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:15 AM   #18168
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Originally Posted by Rectaltronics View Post
It's not entirely a travesty. Promoting bicycles is a good thing. It is just being carried out in a poor fashion and enforcement is about as strenuous as jaywalking.
You'll find a lot of bicyclists who disagree with you. There has been a considerable crackdown on bicycle traffic infractions, often with Kafkaesque results not too dissimilar from those at motorcycle checkpoints.

It's part of a carrot-and-stick approach the administration is using for bicycle promotion. You get bike lanes and Citibike on the one hand, and on the other hand you get a measure of repression designed to make people think twice before running a red light. I'd say it's been mostly effective.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:36 PM   #18169
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Originally Posted by eastbloc View Post
You'll find a lot of bicyclists who disagree with you. There has been a considerable crackdown on bicycle traffic infractions, often with Kafkaesque results not too dissimilar from those at motorcycle checkpoints.

It's part of a carrot-and-stick approach the administration is using for bicycle promotion. You get bike lanes and Citibike on the one hand, and on the other hand you get a measure of repression designed to make people think twice before running a red light. I'd say it's been mostly effective.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:16 PM   #18170
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Originally Posted by BrooklynOffRoader View Post
Guy at work asked me " aren't you scared riding a motorcycle through manhattan? I explain that I ride defensively and enjoy the ride. He replied that when he see's bikes in his mirrors lane splitting he tries to cut them off on purpose, then laughed. I did remind him he's a prick that's gonna hurt somebody one day or get his self hurt or car damaged.
You might mention that he stands a fair chance of getting himself beaten halfway to death or shot by pulling that shit on the wrong guy (or even gal) on a bike.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:26 PM   #18171
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Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
How's that working out for you so far?



Here's the truth:

- We're not Europe.
- We're not taking anything back, it's taking us.
- You will NEVER convince the avg American car driver to respect of give a shit about motorcycles, period.
Here's the truth:

- The mayor is a Europhile. He's an idiot for his anti-motorcycle antics. But never mind that miserable cunt. I remember the day when Euro bicyclists here were uniformly ridiculed. Now the styles and practices are accepted and Lycra shorts and tops have become mainstream. While it is sad that Americans are consistently twenty years or more behind the rest of the world, things can and do change.
- If you've given up, feel free to leave. I'm not giving up.
- Every single day I encounter at least a half dozen average American car (and truck) drivers who actually move over to make room for me as I approach between lanes, and as the years have gone on I have encountered less and less belligerent hillbillies bent on making me suck on their exhaust. I think I might have seen ONE this entire year. In fact, I have received so much courtesy that I frequently have awkward moments where I don't feel like zipping through lanes of traffic but a motorist in front insists on pulling aside and waving me on.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:49 PM   #18172
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Originally Posted by Rectaltronics View Post
Here's the truth:

- The mayor is a Europhile. He's an idiot for his anti-motorcycle antics. But never mind that miserable cunt. I remember the day when Euro bicyclists here were uniformly ridiculed. Now the styles and practices are accepted and Lycra shorts and tops have become mainstream. While it is sad that Americans are consistently twenty years or more behind the rest of the world, things can and do change.
- If you've given up, feel free to leave. I'm not giving up.
- Every single day I encounter at least a half dozen average American car (and truck) drivers who actually move over to make room for me as I approach between lanes, and as the years have gone on I have encountered less and less belligerent hillbillies bent on making me suck on their exhaust. I think I might have seen ONE this entire year. In fact, I have received so much courtesy that I frequently have awkward moments where I don't feel like zipping through lanes of traffic but a motorist in front insists on pulling aside and waving me on.


Sorry dude, it's simply not gonna happen with motorcycles.


And why would I leave? It's just my opinion, feel free to ride every day through the city and create some type of checkpoints checker or something, it's fine. Sounds like a lot of work to me though. You could create an entire block of parking for motorcycles and I could pretty much guarantee you it would become something else in 3 years.

I don't trust cage drivers to ever care about me, I'm invisible or hated for the most part and I've stopped trying to convince non bikers I have rights. That's truthfully the least of my frustrations riding here in NYC.

I blame Bloomberg for this downward spiral, and his army of police, and his ridiculous over regulations on everything he deems unsafe or unhealthy.

ps - pretty much every summer night a group of rice racers scream down Prospect parkway at triple digits, at least 3 times a night. I can hear it way up in my pre-war, AC and noise machine going.... And so do all the other people in Brooklyn, the ones who don't ride.

Nope, that's not gonna be anything like Lycra bicycle clothing acceptance.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:51 PM   #18173
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Originally Posted by eastbloc View Post
You'll find a lot of bicyclists who disagree with you. There has been a considerable crackdown on bicycle traffic infractions, often with Kafkaesque results not too dissimilar from those at motorcycle checkpoints.

It's part of a carrot-and-stick approach the administration is using for bicycle promotion. You get bike lanes and Citibike on the one hand, and on the other hand you get a measure of repression designed to make people think twice before running a red light. I'd say it's been mostly effective.
I'm sure folks will disagree. Har.

I see entire groups of folks "salmoning" right past police and nobody even twitches. The Citibikes have made things geometrically worse.

A few weeks ago one flipped off a cop that had given his siren a quick stab to remind her she shouldn't be going west on an eastbound street AND running a red light directly in front of him. Cop did nothing in response. She continued northbound on 7th Avenue, headed right for me.

If I did that to a cop I'd have ended up being run down by a fucking dragnet and get an eventual toilet plunger handle up my ass.

It turns out that maybe I am somewhat wrong about bicycle enforcement, but most of the tickets being issued to bicyclists have actually been for riding on sidewalks. And while that's terrific for pedestrians it doesn't give motorists (or other bicyclists!) much relief from their antics.

Let's be serious here. There are ten times as many motor vehicles as there are bicycles in NYC. Bicyclists can be seen running red lights at nearly every intersection without waiting more than a moment or two. Yet bicyclists receive 1/50th of the tickets that motorists do. Relatively speaking it's still a joke, even if it isn't quite a jaywalking -rate joke.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:59 PM   #18174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
create some type of checkpoints checker or something, it's fine.
I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
I'm invisible or hated for the most part
It might just be you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
I blame Bloomberg for this downward spiral, and his army of police, and his ridiculous over regulations on everything he deems unsafe or unhealthy.
This fascist bullshit actually started under Giuliani. Bloomberg just raised it to an art form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
Nope, that's not gonna be anything like Lycra bicycle clothing acceptance.
The bicycles, not just the clothing.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:23 AM   #18175
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I have to laugh when you guys complain at the victimization you feel as city bikers and "Draconian" Police tactics.

I know this is long winded, but you guys really have no idea how easy you have things.

I have ridden bikes in many cities around the world and I find New York City to be a refreshing breath of freedom that I have not enjoyed elsewhere since the 1970's

Lets compare things to a bikers life in London, a city with larger geographical boundaries but a similar size population.

Police
Like it or not Police are a necessary evil, and Mayor Bloomberg boasts about the size of his "army", but if you believe Wikipedia, the London Met Police Department employs 14,000 more uniformed officers at a cost of $2 billion higher than New York's budget. I would say your Police force are better value for money than London's.

Yet despite the number of cops on the street bike thefts there are more frequent, In 2009 26,000 motorcycles were stolen in London.

And yes London cops hassle bikers just the same as here.

Speed
I don't commute daily to New York like a lot of you guys, but I ride into the city enough to know that during busy times, like every city in the world rush hour traffic is bad.

But the main Manhattan thru routes (Hudson Parkway, FDR drive) outside of rush hour, traffic flows unbelievably freely, most vehicles seem to be traveling 10-20 mph above speed limits. Even the GWB, the busiest bridge in the world, a mere 8 miles from Time Sq, rarely stops traffic outside of rush hour.

During London rush hour (7am-10:00am and 4pm-7:30pm) serious congestion starts 20 miles out of City center and frequently goes into gridlock in town. The London M25 a 6 lane outer city ring road (18 miles from City center) is frequently stop-start and always during rush hour.

Lane splitting
Yes allowed in most places outside USA, in reality London roads are much smaller, and traffic lanes are narrower, so physically fitting you bike through gaps can be a real problem.

Generally cars are smaller in euro cities, they also swap lanes much quicker and with less warning, which makes lane splitting there a real risk.

Costs
Bikes and riding equipment generally cost a fair bit more in UK, Jap bikes in Europe cost a lot more. 20% sales tax on everything has a lot to do with it.

Bikes are toll-free in London, but with gas prices at around $9 per US gallon its a wonder anyone can afford to drive anywhere in Europe.


Speed Cameras
My biggest hatred is Policing by camera, speed cameras are everywhere across London, add to that dozens of mobile camera vans. 36 mph in a 30 zone gets you a ticket in the post. Minimum 3 points on your license for every offense, 12 points in 3 years and you loose your license for 1 year. In theory you could loose your license with one drive into town.

Central London Speed/Red Light cameras in a 18 mile wide zone.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:47 AM   #18176
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Sad about the speed cameras. I've seen bullet holes in a red light camera in the Bx. Not saying that's a solution, but it does put a smile on your face, at least mine.

I think speed cameras are coming to NYC sooner than later.

As far as our emulating Europe with bicycles, people there, from what I've seen, see them as transportation mostly. They don't feel compelled to don garish spandex every time they get on one. Nor the need to block roads en masse just because they can. Bike riders here can learn a lot from them, starting with following traffic regulations. If they want to be taken seriously as a transportation alternative, they have to start by doing their part and acting like something other than idiots, or cunts, which seems to be the word of the day.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:02 AM   #18177
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I have to laugh when you guys complain at the victimization you feel as city bikers and "Draconian" Police tactics.
Jezza, thanks for the perspective. Honestly it doesn't make me feel much better. London is not on my list of places I want to live and their speed camera tactics are but a symptom of why, but then again nor is Afghanistan high on my list. And I think some of your perspectives are a bit naive...

The FDR and WSH/HH, yeah sure they flow freely, until you get anywhere near the Brooklyn Bridge, Triboro Bridge, George Washington Bridge, 59th Street (Queensboro) Bridge. Often worse on weekends than on weekdays and who gives a rat's ass if it flows well at 1pm when you need to use it at 5pm.

Crosstown traffic is rather awful no matter what. I discovered it took me the same time to go from Rego Park to Secaucus via the George Washington Bridge as it did to go virtually straight across via 495. Check a map and do the math. That's fucked up.

Serious congestion starts FIFTY miles away during rush hour. Don't kid yourself here. Then folks queue up for nearly an hour every day just to make it into the Lincoln tunnel or onto the GWB.

And the GWB rarely stops outside rush hour? Maybe outbound. Inbound, you must be high. Inbound it becomes a victim of the Cross-Bronx, one of the worst roads in all of NYC. As soon as rush hour is over the commercial traffic plugs it up worse than the toilet bowl in a Taco Bell at bar closing time. And weekends, fuggedaboudit.

Motorcycle theft here is rampant and if you've been paying attention here you'd know the theft rings are so bold that they actually stole back from the police some motorcycles that the police had recovered! Reported bicycle theft numbers are absurdly low here but it is said that the actual number of thefts are somewhere on the order of FIVE HUNDRED times the reported number. And that doesn't include the theft of parts. Theft here is so bad that people have published coffee table picture books of stripped bicycles.

Consider that Kryptonite Locks offers insurance policies with their products but those policies are void in NYC for all but their "New York" line of products! Are there any bicycle locks with "London" in the name? Look, I don't mean to minimize London's theft issues but police stats just don't tell the story and I'm sure that goes for both cities.

What you could do is tell me more about how London's cops hassle motorcycle riders.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:11 AM   #18178
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Originally Posted by Rectaltronics View Post
What you could do is tell me more about how London's cops hassle motorcycle riders.

They blow their whistle at you really aggressively while having a finger on the CS gas?
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:18 AM   #18179
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I have to laugh when you guys complain at the victimization you feel as city bikers and "Draconian" Police tactics.
You're right, that was long winded...

ps- I don't think anyone's comparing NYC to London, which is a whole different ball of wax. That might be another debate but my dog won't hunt in that fight. BTW no one here's discussing costs, tolls etc - that's a completely different government (?)

What many of us are saying, is that if you actually lived and rode here steadily for at least the last 10 plus years - NYC has gotten draconian in it's acceptance and climate for the avg motorcyclist.

Sure, it was really great in the mid 80s, probably even better in the mid 70s, but the last 10 years have become ridiculous. And not in a good way.

I read (about 5 years ago maybe more) that London has more surveillance cameras per square mile than anyplace on earth. So your map doesn't at all surprise me.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:58 PM   #18180
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Ok geezers. Time to vote, what say you:

Stop Riding in NYC
Ride within the current laws
Viva la moto revolucion
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