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Old 03-25-2006, 06:38 PM   #1
b17flyguy OP
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Eh? 640 LC4 Sprocket Seal Question?

Hi, this is my first post. This forum is awesome and has been very useful. Just bought an 2002 LC4 couple of weeks ago and it is my first dual-sport/dirtbike.

So here is my problem. I traced an oil leak to the sprocket seal (pretty bad one). So I read Creeper's guide to changing the seal and Meat Popsicle's guide to replace the chain. Great , now I know what to do!

However, when I inspected my bike I found that the bolt is tight, but the spring washer is completely loose and the sprocket has a few mm of axial play on the shaft. Is this normal? (I don't think so from reading the guides)

I also noticed that the chain is grinding on the metal guide for the cover. So I counted and I have a 16T front sprocket and a 42T rear one with a DID 520 VM chain (covered in bits of metal). Isn't this the stock configuration? Why is it grinding? The guide is stamped 15/16T!

I don't know if it matters but the bike came with Talon Hubs.

I will take this apart as soon as I get some of that Loctite.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 03-25-2006, 09:43 PM   #2
mikeprod92211
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How many miles on the clock?
You may be due, hopefully , just for a sprocket replacement!
Once you remove the counter shaft sprocket bolt, washer and sprocket, hopefully it's just the sprocket that is worn and not the shaft!
If your chain is too stiff, dry, maybe rusty and not following the teeth properly and binding, that can cause it to bunch up and rub on the chain guide!
You may need a good chain cleaning and lube, or if it's too stiff and rusry, a replacement my be in order.
Keep us posted!
BTW, I understand that OEM stuff works great, I myself have had great experience with Sidewinder chain and sprockets!
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Old 03-25-2006, 10:32 PM   #3
b17flyguy OP
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The chain and sprockets appear to be fairly new and are in good shape. No rust, binding or abvious damage and tension is on the mark. The only thing wrong with the chain when I cleaned it is the little bits of metal that are being ground from the guide. The most important thing I need to know is:

Is the sprocket supposed to have axial play in the shaft?

Is the spring washer supposed to be loose and the sprocket able to slide back and forth on the shaft?

Thanks for the help
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:35 PM   #4
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
...

So here is my problem. I traced an oil leak to the sprocket seal (pretty bad one). So I read Creeper's guide to changing the seal and Meat Popsicle's guide to replace the chain. Great , now I know what to do!

However, when I inspected my bike I found that the bolt is tight, but the spring washer is completely loose and the sprocket has a few mm of axial play on the shaft. Is this normal? (I don't think so from reading the guides)

I also noticed that the chain is grinding on the metal guide for the cover. So I counted and I have a 16T front sprocket and a 42T rear one with a DID 520 VM chain (covered in bits of metal). Isn't this the stock configuration? Why is it grinding? The guide is stamped 15/16T!

I don't know if it matters but the bike came with Talon Hubs.

I will take this apart as soon as I get some of that Loctite.

Thanks for your help.
Hopefully the man hisself will show up and give you a hand with this. I would guess that there should be zero play in the shaft, and the play yours has is why the chain is grinding on the guide (a 17T will grind on it because it is too big for that model, but the 16T should be fine).

I linked your thread into his so he can find you.
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Old 03-26-2006, 11:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
Hi, this is my first post. This forum is awesome and has been very useful. Just bought an 2002 LC4 couple of weeks ago and it is my first dual-sport/dirtbike.

So here is my problem. I traced an oil leak to the sprocket seal (pretty bad one). So I read Creeper's guide to changing the seal and Meat Popsicle's guide to replace the chain. Great , now I know what to do!

However, when I inspected my bike I found that the bolt is tight, but the spring washer is completely loose and the sprocket has a few mm of axial play on the shaft. Is this normal? (I don't think so from reading the guides)

I also noticed that the chain is grinding on the metal guide for the cover. So I counted and I have a 16T front sprocket and a 42T rear one with a DID 520 VM chain (covered in bits of metal). Isn't this the stock configuration? Why is it grinding? The guide is stamped 15/16T!

I don't know if it matters but the bike came with Talon Hubs.

I will take this apart as soon as I get some of that Loctite.

Thanks for your help.
Just to clarify... when you say "axial" I assume you are referring to the lateral movement of the shaft, back and forth in the case and not radial play, correct?
The axial (lateral) play is normal... a max of .016" is allowed. It is the design of the shaft and the fitment in its bearings.
Mine measures .013".



As to the washer...
The sprocket bolt has a shoulder or "step" on it that measures about .080", while the washer which fits over the shoulder, measures about .060" thick (all I have are used parts, so these numbers may vary).
The washer is dished, so when torqued the washer compresses, tries to flatten out... but as there is no real clamp load on it other than the tension applied by the dished shape being compressed... it tends to rotate a bit. This by the way is what holds your sprocket laterally on the shaft.

As to the chain grinding on the guide, assuming you've counted everything correctly, its sounds all stock stuff from the discription... all I can imagine is an incredibly loose chain.

Best of luck,
C
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creeper screwed with this post 03-27-2006 at 08:40 AM Reason: I made an error in the allowable axial transmission shaft play. I stated 1/8" was acceptable when in fact the maximum allowable play is only .016"
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Old 03-27-2006, 08:39 AM   #6
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Please note the corrected specification error in my last post.

C
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Old 03-27-2006, 08:55 AM   #7
gman350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
However, when I inspected my bike I found that the bolt is tight, but the spring washer is completely loose and the sprocket has a few mm of axial play on the shaft. Is this normal? (I don't think so from reading the guides)


If I am correct, what you are saying, is that you can grab your sprocket and slide it in and out on the shaft(without the shaft moving), even with the bolt tightened down?


I can do that on my bike also.


My 2001 LC4 came from the previous owner with stock gearing. I dropped a tooth on the front sprocket. I ordered the sprocket from a ktm dealer online, and doublechecked that it was the correct one after I received it. It is narrower than the sprocket that came on the bike.

Not sure why it is like that. Mine isn't contacting anything though, even when I slide it all the way in or all the way out.
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Old 03-27-2006, 01:05 PM   #8
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I worked on it some this weekend. To clarify I am talking about the sprocket being able to slide in and out of the shaft, even when the bolt is tight. The sprocket has so much play that the clamp washer doesnít even contact the sprocket.

Meat is right about the guide . I notice that the sprocket slides so far in that the chain links grind against the guide. When I slide the sprocket all the way in it is obvious the chain is out of alignment too. So I am pretty sure this is not normal.

From the parts diagram it looks like the clamp washer outer edge is supposed to rest on the sprocket, the sprocket rests on the sleeve and the sleeve rest on the silicon O-ring. The O-ring rests against the bearing which is supported by the engine case. My guess is that the O-ring is either gone or so damaged that it allows for sprocket to slide in and out of the shaft. It could also have the wrong thickness sprocket or the wrong thickness sleeve. I canít imagine an O-ring being able to seal with all that play in the assembly. With no pressure from the sleeve how can it seal, right? That might explain my major oil leak!

I wonít be able to take the wheel and chain off until next weekend (No garage, no lift, no center stand and very little time ) but Iíll post the results.

Any comments are welcome!

Thanks
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Old 03-27-2006, 01:40 PM   #9
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
I worked on it some this weekend. To clarify I am talking about the sprocket being able to slide in and out of the shaft, even when the bolt is tight. The sprocket has so much play that the clamp washer doesnít even contact the sprocket.

Meat is right about the guide . I notice that the sprocket slides so far in that the chain links grind against the guide. When I slide the sprocket all the way in it is obvious the chain is out of alignment too. So I am pretty sure this is not normal.

From the parts diagram it looks like the clamp washer outer edge is supposed to rest on the sprocket, the sprocket rests on the sleeve and the sleeve rest on the silicon O-ring. The O-ring rests against the bearing which is supported by the engine case. My guess is that the O-ring is either gone or so damaged that it allows for sprocket to slide in and out of the shaft. It could also have the wrong thickness sprocket or the wrong thickness sleeve. I canít imagine an O-ring being able to seal with all that play in the assembly. With no pressure from the sleeve how can it seal, right? That might explain my major oil leak!

I wonít be able to take the wheel and chain off until next weekend (No garage, no lift, no center stand and very little time ) but Iíll post the results.

Any comments are welcome!

Thanks
I was wrong about the play, so quit yer bowing! Luckly for me I was just guessing...

Perhaps a pic would help (yours if you can post one). Here is mine:


That is a 16T CS sprocket. Note there is very, very little room between it and the 'guide' I thought you were talking about - the one that holds the CS sprocket cover screws.

So what are you talking about - "the chain is grinding on the metal guide for the cover"... ? If the shaft is sliding in/out of the case (i.e. the same movement you would use to pull the CS sprocket off the shaft or put it back on eh?) then it shouldn't make the chain hit the guide. In regards to the chain grinding, either:

1) you have more play of the kind that creeper detailed above, which is more likely to allow the chain to hit the guide,

2) or you have a 17T CS sprocket,

3) or you have a bent guide...

(NOTE: more guessing but there is a process of elimination to go thru)

In regards to the leak, creeper did say in his guide that if you leave the CS sprocket off for a time the seal would start to leak, so I am thinking you are onto something that the play might be part of the leak. How thick is your CS sprocket?

Here is my CS area cleaned up a bit (not as much as creepers of course ):
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Old 03-27-2006, 02:38 PM   #10
b17flyguy OP
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Quote:
the 'guide' I thought you were talking about - the one that holds the CS sprocket cover screws.
That is the guide I am talking about!

Quote:
1) you have more play of the kind that creeper detailed above, which is more likely to allow the chain to hit the guide,
The play is not the shaft sliding in and out but rather the sprocket sliding on the shaft

Quote:
2) or you have a 17T CS sprocket,
Nope, it is 16T I counted it twice and then again. When I pull the sprocket out against the clamp washer there is no interference with the guide.

Quote:
3) or you have a bent guide...
I don't thinks so, the guide looks good. I think the sprocket slides so far in towards the engine resulting in the chain being out of alignment to the guide. this results in the chain links grind on the edge of the guide.

The big question is why the sprocket slide so much on the shaft towards the engine

Hopefuly I'll find out next weekend

Thanks!!!!!!

You guys are cool
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Old 03-27-2006, 02:57 PM   #11
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
... The play is not the shaft sliding in and out but rather the sprocket sliding on the shaft
That sounds better than the shaft sliding in and out - look on the bright side!

Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
... When I pull the sprocket out against the clamp washer there is no interference with the guide.
How far is that movement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
... I think the sprocket slides so far in towards the engine resulting in the chain being out of alignment to the guide. this results in the chain links grind on the edge of the guide.

The big question is why the sprocket slide so much on the shaft towards the engine

Hopefuly I'll find out next weekend

Thanks!!!!!!

You guys are cool
I would ask what CS sprocket is it - KTM part, the correct KTM part, or?

And from my one time of being there () I can't say I can picture enough movement of the sprocket to allow the chain to be far enough out of alignment so that it rubs on the guide. I guess it really is that close...
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Old 03-27-2006, 04:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b17flyguy
Hi, this is my first post. This forum is awesome and has been very useful. Just bought an 2002 LC4 couple of weeks ago and it is my first dual-sport/dirtbike.

So here is my problem. I traced an oil leak to the sprocket seal (pretty bad one). So I read Creeper's guide to changing the seal and Meat Popsicle's guide to replace the chain. Great , now I know what to do!

However, when I inspected my bike I found that the bolt is tight, but the spring washer is completely loose and the sprocket has a few mm of axial play on the shaft. Is this normal? (I don't think so from reading the guides)

I also noticed that the chain is grinding on the metal guide for the cover. So I counted and I have a 16T front sprocket and a 42T rear one with a DID 520 VM chain (covered in bits of metal). Isn't this the stock configuration? Why is it grinding? The guide is stamped 15/16T!

I don't know if it matters but the bike came with Talon Hubs.

I will take this apart as soon as I get some of that Loctite.

Thanks for your help.
I think I know what's going on now that I've had time to chew on it. If you've already figured it out... sorry I'm late to the party.

You say your washer is loose, you have sprocket lateral play, an oil leak and the chain is hitting the guard.

This is what's happening.



The loose washer (22) is allowing the sprocket to move laterally, which allows the spacer (25) to move laterally, eliminating the compression on the shaft sealing o-rings (19 & 21). This, unless your seal is shot as well, is the cause of your leak.
It is also likely the cause of your chain hitting the guard. If the sprocket has been moving for some time, it may be loose on its splines, allowing radial eccentricity and cocking... which would I believe allow the sprocket to come into contact with the guard.

Thats my theory... and I'm gona' hang my hat on it for awhile.

Ciao,
C
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
Thats my theory... and I'm gona' hang my hat on it for awhile.

So to simplify what Creep said, your tellerfeder is too loose causing your kettenrad to move on the shaft... are we gettin' this?
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Old 03-27-2006, 08:59 PM   #14
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I had same prob.

Creep's suspicion is correct I believe. I had same problem on my '03 640 Adv, you are supposed to replace that bolt and spring washer each time you replace your countershaft sprocket (or whenever the washer doesn't seem "springy" any more). It comes as a set, and cost something like $6 (and comes pre-loctited!) KTM Part# 590.33.034.044.

I went through the same BS, changed the CS seal, changed the o-ring, still leaking WTF!!! My washer was flattened as well, and allowed just a tiny bit of movement. But that was enough to allow oil to leak past that little o-ring on the back of the spacer, and oil would run down the splines and fling all over the place. Messy!

The new bolt and springwasher fixed the problem permanentlty.

Good luck.
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Old 03-28-2006, 12:38 PM   #15
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I am pretty sure now that the silicone O-ring is so damaged that it is the cause of all the problems (at least that is what I am hoping so). I don't think the washer is the cause of the porblems since I can push (slide, not cock) the sprocket in, it will go so far in that the chain links will hit the guide. If I pull the sprocket against the spring washer the the chain rollers are in alignment with the guide, the chain links stay clear on both sides and it just looks right.

My guess is that the O-ring is squished flat resulting in improper spacing, or maybe flat out gone. I guess I could have the wrong spacer bushing or maybe a aftermarket sprocket that is to thin.

Thanks for all the help. After I work on it I will Update!

ALL I want is a HAPPY and aligned kettenrad.

Hey dOgWateR that is a cool avatar!
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