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Old 11-26-2009, 09:25 PM   #61
dwayne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warewolf

dwayne, I think I'd rather have the KTM parts book in my hand, with the occasional error, than not.
true, but I'd rather not have to reorder a con-rod because they list two engines on one page.

Most Japanese parts digrams work much better than the KTM ones, and incorrect parts diagrams lead DYIers no end of frustration, and many weird issues such as noted with the carrier bearings. While having a parts diagram is an improvement over not having one, a correct, logically laid out one is even better.
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:06 PM   #62
wrk2surf
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My question always has been is,,, is the carrier cast different as well?? same thickness etc.. we need to get the two and photo/measure them ..
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Old 11-26-2009, 11:13 PM   #63
Tseta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk2surf
My question always has been is,,, is the carrier cast different as well?? same thickness etc.. we need to get the two and photo/measure them ..
No, the carriers are definitely not the same, as indicated by the part numbers and the different bore sizes for the bearings. Also the casting pattern is quite different looking at places. I will try to take some comparison photos of these during the winter.

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Old 11-27-2009, 05:38 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loadedagain
no!!!!! bearings come pre packed with a sufficient amount of grease. packing in a whole whack more could cause an overheating condition and failure. you may get lucky and heat the bearing up resulting in liquid grease pouring out... but the result will be similar... no grease... you will likely have a failure.
As noted in this thread, there are two schools of thought concerning repacking sealed bearings. Having been an electrician in a sawmill, I have dealt with a lot of motor bearings. From my experience in dealing with large electric motor bearings, over greasing is the leading cause of bearing failure. IMO, when dealing with a high speed application such as a motor, when using sealed bearings, don't add any grease, just install and run them.

Many years ago I felt packing sealed bearings full of grease for use in a motorcycle wheel was a bad idea and didn't do it. However, I was going through bearings (especially on the rear of my first 520) and found the failure was due to moisture and rust. I was having to install new rear bearings on my old 520 almost every time I replaced the rear tire (2 -3 times a year) Decided to try repacking new sealed bearing fairly full with water resistance (boat trailer) grease. Since then, have been going through a lot less wheel bearings. Still pull them out at least once a year and clean them out and regrease them, but don't have to replace them very often.

IMO, packing sealed bearings for a motor application is still a bad idea. However, I now believe that motorcycle wheel bearings are a different matter all together. The speed is much slower and rarely constant like a large industrial motor. Don't believe they get hot enough from the speed they see for the extra grease to be a problem. Do believe the boat trailer grease will help keep the moisture and other dirt out and usable grease in where it needs to be.

It is your bike, so do what you feel is best. For me and my bikes, I now always pull the seals and clean out the stock grease and fill them with water proof grease. Works well for me.

YMMV
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Old 11-28-2009, 01:01 AM   #65
bmwktmbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 650x
As noted in this thread, there are two schools of thought concerning repacking sealed bearings. Having been an electrician in a sawmill, I have dealt with a lot of motor bearings. From my experience in dealing with large electric motor bearings, over greasing is the leading cause of bearing failure. IMO, when dealing with a high speed application such as a motor, when using sealed bearings, don't add any grease, just install and run them.

Many years ago I felt packing sealed bearings full of grease for use in a motorcycle wheel was a bad idea and didn't do it. However, I was going through bearings (especially on the rear of my first 520) and found the failure was due to moisture and rust. I was having to install new rear bearings on my old 520 almost every time I replaced the rear tire (2 -3 times a year) Decided to try repacking new sealed bearing fairly full with water resistance (boat trailer) grease. Since then, have been going through a lot less wheel bearings. Still pull them out at least once a year and clean them out and regrease them, but don't have to replace them very often.

IMO, packing sealed bearings for a motor application is still a bad idea. However, I now believe that motorcycle wheel bearings are a different matter all together. The speed is much slower and rarely constant like a large industrial motor. Don't believe they get hot enough from the speed they see for the extra grease to be a problem. Do believe the boat trailer grease will help keep the moisture and other dirt out and usable grease in where it needs to be.

It is your bike, so do what you feel is best. For me and my bikes, I now always pull the seals and clean out the stock grease and fill them with water proof grease. Works well for me.

YMMV
You know I said that too and people told me I was crazy, oh well. It goes for front wheel bearings as well or any bearings on our 640's. I use Red wheel bearing grease.It will take the high temps of disc braking and hold up but remain fluid at low temps, available at Ace hardware. Completely waterproof. Great for the pivot, swing arm and steering head too.
bill
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Old 11-28-2009, 01:29 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 650x
IMO, packing sealed bearings for a motor application is still a bad idea. However, I now believe that motorcycle wheel bearings are a different matter all together. The speed is much slower
I think this is the point of difference. The rated speed on the bearings is 7-15,000rpm, but a motorcycle wheel is only turning ~800rpm at 100km/h. Packing with a moderate amount of grease, say every 5000km service, is my plan.
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KTM LC4 640 Question? Check here first --> KTM LC4 (640) Index Thread
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All racers I know aren't in it for the money. They race because it's something inside of them... They're not courting death. They're courting being alive.
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Old 11-28-2009, 11:42 PM   #67
bmwktmbill
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Wolf, I get your line of thought and I do a 10K miles service interval. I think the idea is that sealed bearings aren't really sealed, they are shielded.
Water can always get in.
bill
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Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:01 PM   #68
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Hello,

As I promised, here are some pictures of the two different sprocket carriers. These are off of a 2003 KTM 640 Adventure (with the regular sprocket) and a 2007 KTM 640 Adventure (with the orange aluminum/steel sprocket). The part numbers are, as described earlier, 58310050144 SPROCKET SUPPORT CPL. 03 and 58310050344 SPROCKET SUPPORT CPL. 06, respectively. The pictures also show the difference between the 3205 and the two 6005 bearings.
















































Cheers,

Tseta
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:44 PM   #69
bmwktmbill
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Testa,
That's the best post I have seen in an orange age.
Thank you,
bill
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Cormack McCarthy-The Crossing

The faster it goes the faster it breaks.
And high performance=high maintenance.
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:09 PM   #70
wrk2surf
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after 2 hubs on my sxc went south, I didnt know one cracked and made my worn pads drag metal to metal so I changed my pads and didnt notice on the deep sierra ride thru the dusy ershim trail the bearing fully failed and made it into a two day ride/rescue... the second at about 50mph on a fire road it spun the sprocket fully off with the threaded hub tabs.. luckily no major damage to me or the bike ,,, that took me to a cush... didnt know the difference and went with the one that came in first ( the 03 earlier) they were both on BO. Noticed the rally bikes used the older one and now Im happy I got the single bearing older style.. it is a little short for the "diamond" 03 and older non boxy swingarm and maybe that explans the width difference.. but when torqued down it works fine and chain lines up , no brake drag... thought about a thick nylon spacer but havent went down that road. I will post a photo of the gap the next time I have my wheel off..




here is another thread about the bearings...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...=297961&page=2


and I actually posted here.. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389341


so now all we need is the bleepin thread status on this one... Meat pop???

also im so glad the bearing/carrier question has finally been answered!!!!
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wrk2surf screwed with this post 12-06-2009 at 11:58 PM
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:47 PM   #71
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrk2surf
...


so now all we need is the bleepin thread status on this one... Meat pop???

also im so glad the bearing/carrier question has finally been answered!!!!
huh? whaa?

(what is the price difference between the two setups?)
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:56 PM   #72
Tseta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
(what is the price difference between the two setups?)
58310050144SPROCKET SUPPORT CPL. 03$117.96 $117.96
58310050344SPROCKET SUPPORT CPL. 06$116.22 $116.22

From elitektm.com fiche

These setups include the bearings and the bushings already installed on the carrier. The price difference is quite negligible. However, one must also consider that the '03 comes with the "expensive" bearing and the '06 with two "regular" bearings. The difference will be felt if/when replacing said bearings.

Cheers,

Tseta
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:55 PM   #73
wrk2surf
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and while you are at it meat... http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418951...
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:25 PM   #74
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tseta
...

These setups include the bearings and the bushings already installed on the carrier. The price difference is quite negligible. However, one must also consider that the '03 comes with the "expensive" bearing and the '06 with two "regular" bearings. The difference will be felt if/when replacing said bearings.

Cheers,

Tseta
So the issue here is the later model LC4s come with two cheap bearings that fail earlier/more often and cause you to either buy lots of replacement bearings from KTM (w/markup... ) or if you read this thread you might replace the whole shebang with the older setup that has the good expensive bearing - that lasts longer.

My mind is slipping - how much longer does the good expensive bearing last on average?
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:57 PM   #75
Tseta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
So the issue here is the later model LC4s come with two cheap bearings that fail earlier/more often and cause you to either buy lots of replacement bearings from KTM (w/markup... ) or if you read this thread you might replace the whole shebang with the older setup that has the good expensive bearing - that lasts longer.

My mind is slipping - how much longer does the good expensive bearing last on average?
First, the bearings for both setups are commonly available from industrial bearing suppliers. No need to pay the KTM prices.

Second, I don't claim to know for sure which bearing setup is better. I also don't have any facts on the longevity of either setup. I said earlier that the newer setup needed changing at 15tkm, while the older setup has now lasted for 30tkm with no signs of wear. However, in both of these cases, the bikes are pre-owned with no real knowledge of past service history. I really don't want to convey a notion that either setup would be superior to the other, or that based on my ramblings someone would actually switch from the newer setup.

In (adventure) motorcycle use, dirt and water contamination of the bearings plays a significant role in bearing wear. Perhaps the bearing service life in this case is more a function of the external operating conditions than the actual imposed load.

It seems that KTM also used similar angular contact bearings earlier on the rear sprocket carrier of the LC8 models, but changed to a double ball bearing setup around the same time as on the LC4 models.

Last, the only issue, in my opinion, that exists with this rear sprocket carrier is the discrepancy in the fiches. If the new setup was somehow significantly inferior in performance, one would think that we would be hearing much more about it.

Cheers,

Tseta
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