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Old 01-06-2012, 09:20 AM   #58696
UberKul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
i have 13mm of preload. weigh 175 nude and have .50 eibachs in there.
...and it's frigin' harsh. the fork deflects of everything as the rate is too much.
it's become clear after i've optimized my Cogent rear shock finally.
Sounds to me like your valving is off not your spring rate? If you have the stock valving consider thinner oil. There might be some kind of fork alignment or stiction going on as well.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #58697
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerocycle View Post
I'm not sure what to do with my suspension. It works fine as stock, even though I'm 245 lbs. I think I've only bottomed it once and do prob about 40 off road 60 on road. I do admit its soft, but it works, I guess It might have to do with I've never felt or ridden anything else. Not sure it's worth my money. Do you guys think it's best to call keintech?

I've read on here some guys think new springs were too hard. But that's changing to straight rate springs when the stockers are progressive.
If you're riding mild dirt roads and nothing too technical, all at a moderate pace, then you have no problem.

If conditions change and you UP the pace ... the bike won't handle very well. What happens with stock suspension (with your weight) is the bike rides too far down in the travel. This is not good. It becomes harsh in the last 40% of travel and will also bottom out. Rebound on the stock shock is fairly pitiful ... especially with a heavy rider on board. A heavier spring can be better but tends to overwhelm the already poor rebound damping.

What you will find if you re-do your suspension is that your bike will float nicely over rough ground, steer more accurately and track straighter.
The key thing is to balance Front and Rear suspension so they work in harmony and compliment each other.

But as mentioned ... if you only ride at a very moderate pace, then leave it alone.

Adv Grifter screwed with this post 01-06-2012 at 10:47 AM
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:26 AM   #58698
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epix1718 View Post
Anyone know if these DR350 rear wheels can work on a DR650? Local seller has 2 of them for sale (both this style) Pretty sure they are "dirt bike" style DR350 wheels, as they also had rim locks in place. Any clue if they'll work on the 96+ style DR650?
There are several references in this thread about DR350 wheels. Far as I know they bolt right up. It's an 18" rear, which some prefer. Not sure if ALL DR350's are minus Cush Drive. Remember, there were 3 different DR350 models. Basically one street legal, one off road.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:43 AM   #58699
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
i have 13mm of preload. weigh 175 nude and have .50 eibachs in there.
this yields 1.5" of sag.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468588
...and it's frigin' harsh. the fork deflects of everything as the rate is too much.
it's become clear after i've optimized my Cogent rear shock finally.

kinda confused jeff, as i thought you knew suspensions better than this.
fork travel is 10.2" and thus the 25% of sag that all other suspension tuners recommend says i should have 2.5" of sag? why are you saying 1.5" of sag is ok and if i add a stiffer spring/even lass sag (.55) that's ok too???

please enlighten me why you recommended staying with what i have or going stiffer because it ain't workin" for me? have you tested w/ intiminators as it sounds like your a race tech emulator guy.
are race techs numbers not equal to eibach (thus the confussion) or do you think 1.5" of sag is ideal?

i was hopping you'd have all the DR guru answers, but i'm confused as ever?

so question to other intiminator users, what spring rate are you using?
i'm thinking .46-.48 at this point.

stock is .40 correct???
Of course it's harsh ... your fork springs are too stiff for your weight. First thing to try is remove half or more of your pre-load spacer. Go test ride. Yes? No? Better? Worse? No Change? Fast better? Slow OK? Road vs. Off Road? Hard to make the DR work perfectly on both surfaces ... but you can come close.

I'm 200 lbs. and am running .47 kgs. Eibach springs from Jesse. Big improvement (over stock .40 kgs.) but I have fiddled with pre-load a lot to fine tune it. At slow speeds it's a bit firm ... but when the pace picks up things work pretty well. In the rough it's very good. Won't match my WR250F ... but what do you expect!

I don't look at Sag up front, I have about 1.5 inch as well, IIRC. I use 7 wt. fork oil and change it once every year or two. Stock fork springs are .40 kgs. ... and it's a progressive spring ... as opposed to the Eibach, which is straight rate.

What these forks really need is the full Race Tech treatment ... drilling a few holes in the cartridge and adding emulators and fine tuning pre load.

I had a 7.6 kgs. Eibach spring out back before I went to an Ohlins. The Ohlins is a different world. So easy to tune and more than enough rebound. Fantastic when bike is fully loaded.

On the DR650 you can't follow "normal" Race Tech recommended rates of Sag. The DR is weird and not like a dirt bike. It has a LOT of static sag out back (like 2.5 inches or so) ... and almost NO sag up front. I was told it has something to do with the shock linkage. Race Sag (you on the bike) is what matters. I have about 3 to 3.5 inches.

I urge everyone to read Paul Thede's (founder of Race Tech) essays on suspension. He wrote these essays years ago but still relevant today. Pay attention to what he says about the importance of riding "HIGH" in the travel and why that is best.
Good luck!

Adv Grifter screwed with this post 01-06-2012 at 10:58 AM
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:14 AM   #58700
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3rd gear gone

I got the motor taken down to just the cases and got it out of the bike, i did not have a way of properly splitting the cases, from what i could read you really should use a case splitter, so i know i guy who has one and is good at the tranny stuff, he said he would do it for $120.00 if i bring him the cases and gears.

He split them open and 3rd drive and 3rd driven need to be replaced, as well as the shift fork, one gear is bad but says to replace both to be safe, other than the chunk of gear on the magnetic drain plug i found no metal in the motor neither did he, whew what a relief, also the neutral switch screws were not tight at all, will be putting them back with red lock tight.

So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:38 AM   #58701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeSux View Post
So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
How do you know if a used motor has a good third gear? You got away cheap.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:54 AM   #58702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
There are several references in this thread about DR350 wheels. Far as I know they bolt right up. It's an 18" rear, which some prefer. Not sure if ALL DR350's are minus Cush Drive. Remember, there were 3 different DR350 models. Basically one street legal, one off road.
Pretty sure the wheels will work, (same swingarm on all 350 models) but I personally wouldn't put one on my 650 that didn't have the cush drive.
You will have to purchase a DR650 brake rotor to use any DR350 wheel.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:06 PM   #58703
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeSux View Post
So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
That is super cheap ... you really lucked out. Good luck with re-assembly.
Lot of work but worth it in the end, IMO.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:27 PM   #58704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco638 View Post
Actually, I was after the shift shaft seal (#26) not the shift shaft itself. But, thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
I have no idea how I got #4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeSux View Post
.......He split them open and 3rd drive and 3rd driven need to be replaced, as well as the shift fork, one gear is bad but says to replace both to be safe, other than the chunk of gear on the magnetic drain plug i found no metal in the motor neither did he, whew what a relief, also the neutral switch screws were not tight at all,
will be putting them back with red lock tight.
There are better solutions than red Loctite:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=15

Quote:
So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
I agree that you got off cheap. Don't do hindsight shopping (cars, guns, appliances, wives), it will make you knutz.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:48 PM   #58705
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Hi Folks, I make the spring recommendations based on my experience and preference on the DR 650 along with the continued input from our customers. The previous poster brought up the resonance frequency thing and that is a good way to start selecting a wheel rate in a total information vacuum. So many things come into play, and very importantly the individual riders preference can be the most important. The rate of the spring and the preload are gong to have a really big effect on the initial feel of the fork. With good damping, a firm spring will feel good on the street but not give the travel and function on real off road sections. Brake dive is an important factor and for a lot of people riding their bikes in a mild manner, it can be one of the biggest complaints. When using a damping system like the Intiminators that use very little bleed under smooth braking conditions the dive is really well controlled and we can get away with a quite soft spring rate. I personally prefer to get a different feel on the brakes and look for consistency of weight transfer under bumpy harsh braking and I may even prefer more "settling" on the brakes (more accurately pitch rotation of the chassis) to transfer weight to the front on loos terrain and to effect the steering geometry when riding on the street or track.

As always, setting up the DR650 in a true dual-sport (I now consider mine a Tri-Sport since getting Motard wheels and running it at the track ) is a compromise. What we want is to adjust the spring rate, spring preload, Oil height, rebound and compression damping to work well for everything. Each of those factors effect the other settings.

As an example, using an add-on compression valve with out drilling the stock compression orifices ca be done by using a lighter viscosity oil to extend the velocity of the compression cycle of the fork before the oil packs in the orifice and begins to dramatically increase the high speed compression damping. Using the lighter oil reduces the rebound damping. The reduced rebound damping could be good or it can be compensated for with additional compression damping (not necessarily a bad setup for traction and feel but potentially hurting ride "quality"). With more compression damping we may be able to get away with a softer spring rate while still giving the rider the feeling they want for brake dive and bump absorption.

I am 215 lbs (havn't checked since Christmas cookies), use an IMS tank and ride reasonably aggressively on road, track and off road. I do get air under my bike as often as I can but would never, ever clear any kind of double on an MX track. I am using a .5 Kg/mm spring with the stock forks and the Cogent Dynamics adjustable cartridge damping system installed. I started with an oil height of 140mm (which I knew would be low) and adjusted it up a small amount at a time until the forks bottomed infrequently and in places I expected them to. I am using only 5mm of spring preload but can experiment with that via the adjustable preload option on my forks. Making a series of precut spacers makes changing preload easy on stock forks. Changing the preload makes a really big difference to the fork feel and I personally do not like the off road feel of springs with more than about 10mm of preload.

With heavy riders (say closing in on 260+ pounds), we have done custom springs in the .7 Kg range. Light weight guys may not mind Emulators or intiminators with the stock springs. For a rider at 170 lbs who is not clearing big jumps, the .45 to .47 Kg/mm springs are often a good match and I would error to the light side of that selection if our customer has the Intiminators. An exception would be for hard off road use where a bunch of confused bumps will catch the inertia valve open when it wants to be closed, then you will want more spring than that for sure.

Tune the spring rate, preload and damping for the feel you want and then set the oil height to maintain the feel but resist bottoming. We will set up DR forks with oil heights from about 170mm up to and as high at 115 mm. I like to run a loaded sag near 2.8 inches for the forks but i like to adjust in both directions based on feel. Us East coast folks do not often have the opportunity to hit bid g outs like washes at high speed like the folks out in the wide open west. Spring rates can be changed accordingly...

Just my own $0.02 worth of drivel
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NC Rick screwed with this post 01-06-2012 at 12:53 PM
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:52 PM   #58706
Dravintoad
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Rotopax

I'm thinking I'd like to get a rotopax for my DR just for some extra fuel on occasions. I don't have a rear rack and I am thinking I'd like to be able to mount it on the rear fender. I'm not interested in racks and whatnot. I also don't want a larger tank.

Usually when I strap anything to the rear of the bike, I find I really don't need a rack. I just bungee it onto the handles and it stays put. This works well for me.

So has anyone mounted one horizontal on the rear fender? and could/would I still be able to strap crap on top of it with no worries?

Pics of you set up if you have them please.

Thanks.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:14 PM   #58707
Al Tuna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeSux
So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
Good deal, glad you caught it in time.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:29 PM   #58708
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There probably aren't any shocks off of other bikes that would fit the DR650 with compression/rebound adjustment is there? I was eye-balling a shock for sale off a ktm 640.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:43 PM   #58709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerocycle View Post
There probably aren't any shocks off of other bikes that would fit the DR650 with compression/rebound adjustment is there? I was eye-balling a shock for sale off a ktm 640.
People have fitted DRZ400 shocks and I and others have fitted KTM shocks from the last of the mid/late 90s linkage 2 strokes with littlle effort. Slightly longer shock with more travel and fully adjustable. I guess good ones are a bit rare now, but I got mine a little over a year ago on eBay from the US and it was like new. Still needed springing and valving to suit though. Works fantastic, and heaps better than the upgraded standard shock.

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Old 01-06-2012, 02:48 PM   #58710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
i have 13mm of preload. weigh 175 nude and have .50 eibachs in there.
this yields 1.5" of sag.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468588
...and it's frigin' harsh. the fork deflects of everything as the rate is too much.
it's become clear after i've optimized my Cogent rear shock finally.

kinda confused jeff, as i thought you knew suspensions better than this.
fork travel is 10.2" and thus the 25% of sag that all other suspension tuners recommend says i should have 2.5" of sag? why are you saying 1.5" of sag is ok and if i add a stiffer spring/even lass sag (.55) that's ok too???

please enlighten me why you recommended staying with what i have or going stiffer because it ain't workin" for me? have you tested w/ intiminators as it sounds like your a race tech emulator guy.
are race techs numbers not equal to eibach (thus the confussion) or do you think 1.5" of sag is ideal?

i was hopping you'd have all the DR guru answers, but i'm confused as ever?

so question to other intiminator users, what spring rate are you using?
i'm thinking .46-.48 at this point.

stock is .40 correct???
I've never claimed to have all the answers

If you want good help you have to give the whole story on your suspension setup and exactly what issue you are trying to solve, what kind of riding you do and how you want the bike to feel.
So far I get that you have .50 springs and 1/2" of preload but no mention of what weight oil, the oil height, or any modifications to valving. Harshness and deflection would usually be related to too much compression damping. The spring and preload you have right now should be a very good starting point and only need fine tuning with oil or small changes in preload.

RT and Eibach spring rate numbers are the same. In fact many Race Tech springs are made by Eibach

You have Intiminators? I didn't see that in your previous post. The Intiminators are designed around using softer springs than would otherwise be recommended. Running with Intiminators throws the whole sag equation out the window because Ricor relies on the inertia valve to combat bottoming rather than depending on spring rate and oil height to do the whole job. Ricor recommends using stock springs. I think the Progressive Suspension springs are a better match with the Intiminators especially for touring who like things plush.

The .46 or .48 springs are each only 8% and 4% softer respectively than the .50 springs you have now. A very sensitive rider might be able to tell a 5% difference in spring rate. An average rider can probably feel a 10% difference but it would be relatively subtle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
i would guess then with all that weight/fuel you could be pushing someone similar too a 300lb body weight...
who elses use a .47, how much do you weigh, what are your valves and how does it work?
The Safari tank only holds 18 lbs more fuel that the IMS tank. On a bike/rider combination approaching 600 lbs the additional 18 lbs is only about 3% and isn't all that big a factor.

If we were talking here about a finely tuned race bike then a few percentage points could make a big difference and we would be changing suspension setup for each particular race track. The fact is a DR650 is a huge mix of compromises. The suspension is no different. It has to be a broad compromise to make the bike versatile in a wide range of conditions. Worrying about whether a .47 or .50 spring is 'just right' is a waste of energy.
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