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Old 08-12-2012, 09:27 AM   #68161
zdiver1
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Location: Peoria,Arizona
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Grifter?

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Originally Posted by Rusty Rocket View Post
Anyone know what happened to ADVGrifter? He was very active here and hasn't been heard from since June 6th 2012. Hope everything is OK.
I have been banned two times myself so I do not post on here anymore I do lurk around, I am saving my third strike. If I have a problem and need your guys help!
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:19 PM   #68162
motolab
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Originally Posted by HerrMnnn View Post
A couple of Aus guys over at DRriders fitted fuel/air gauges to their DR's with FCR's. Thread is here http://drriders.com/topic3733.html
I don't consider O2 sensors to be very useful. Here's a brief overview:

1) There is no direct relationship between O2 content and AFR.
2) Even when the mixture cannot be improved, O2 content can and does vary from "ideal".
3) The O2 content can be "perfect" while the mixture is way off.
4) There are may factors that affect O2 content, such as bore size, exhaust valve sealing, ignition timing, and misfires.
5) There is no single "perfect" O2-derived AFR that is applicable to all engines and all combinations of MAP (or TP) and rpm.
6) An O2 sensor's response time is not zero, meaning that there will be a delay between when an O2 content is produced and when it will be read/displayed.
7) An O2 sensor's response time is not likely to be consistent, meaning that the above mentioned delay will vary (i.e. a simple offset will not work).
8) Changes in pressure affect O2 sensor accuracy (pressures inside exhaust systems fluctuate wildly).
9) Changes in temperature affect O2 sensor accuracy, and a heater cannot respond quickly enough to keep it constant.
10) Changes in input voltage affect O2 sensor accuracy (the better controllers can usually eliminate this problem).
11) In the end, AFR is irrelevant. What is relevant is HP and or BSFC at a given intersection of MAP (or TP) and rpm.
12) CO% is the strongest indicator of whether or not the mixture strength is such that the engine will produce best HP or BSFC
13) NOx content (as far as gasses go) is the strongest indicator of whether or not the timing is such that the engine will produce best HP or BSFC, and that it is not detonating.
14) O2 is not a tuning gas. O2 is a diagnostic gas. As such, it tells us about problems such as leaky exhaust valves, weak ignition, misfires & stagger issues after having tuned fuel via CO (with the final arbiter being HP or BSFC) and ignition advance via NOX (with the final arbiter being HP or BSFC).

I'm pleased to note that posters at http://drriders.com/topic3733.html have exhibited awareness of at least some of the above-mentioned.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:19 PM   #68163
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Selling a pro moto billet rack and Wolfman side racks in the parts section.

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Old 08-12-2012, 04:34 PM   #68164
scottbed
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mileage

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Originally Posted by plugeye View Post
mine was a 45mpg average no matter even with a flat CR carb for a couple years. then it slowly but steadily dropped to high 30s.
I bought an '02 in '08....the first two years I got 47-48 mpg....then it slowly and steadily dropped to high 30s. I soaked the carb in pine-sol, had it professionally cleaned by a mechanic, new jets, new gaskets/o-rings. I couldn't make the mileage better. Performance also deteriorated along with the mileage...surging and other symptoms. I even tried a used but known good running carb and it didn't run much better (but it had been bastardized with my carb so maybe something came over from my carb that was the problem).

Enter the TM-40 pumper carb, new intake boot, new exhaust gasket, new slip-on and now I'm back up to 48. I got 41mpg the first tank but I rode mostly city so I can understand. My 2nd tank was 48mpg with more normal riding....I may drop the needle one slot and see if it improves as long as I don't lose performance.

So something fixed the issue, I assume the carb was the problem because I tested the intake boot. I'm wondering if there was something internal that I couldn't clean out that was the problem or maybe the slide diaphragm had issue. I checked float level a few times and I'm 99% sure I did it correctly.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:24 PM   #68165
eRRmmm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
I don't consider O2 sensors to be very useful. Here's a brief overview:

1) There is no direct relationship between O2 content and AFR.
2) Even when the mixture cannot be improved, O2 content can and does vary from "ideal".
3) The O2 content can be "perfect" while the mixture is way off.
4) There are may factors that affect O2 content, such as bore size, exhaust valve sealing, ignition timing, and misfires.
5) There is no single "perfect" O2-derived AFR that is applicable to all engines and all combinations of MAP (or TP) and rpm.
6) An O2 sensor's response time is not zero, meaning that there will be a delay between when an O2 content is produced and when it will be read/displayed.
7) An O2 sensor's response time is not likely to be consistent, meaning that the above mentioned delay will vary (i.e. a simple offset will not work).
8) Changes in pressure affect O2 sensor accuracy (pressures inside exhaust systems fluctuate wildly).
9) Changes in temperature affect O2 sensor accuracy, and a heater cannot respond quickly enough to keep it constant.
10) Changes in input voltage affect O2 sensor accuracy (the better controllers can usually eliminate this problem).
11) In the end, AFR is irrelevant. What is relevant is HP and or BSFC at a given intersection of MAP (or TP) and rpm.
12) CO% is the strongest indicator of whether or not the mixture strength is such that the engine will produce best HP or BSFC
13) NOx content (as far as gasses go) is the strongest indicator of whether or not the timing is such that the engine will produce best HP or BSFC, and that it is not detonating.
14) O2 is not a tuning gas. O2 is a diagnostic gas. As such, it tells us about problems such as leaky exhaust valves, weak ignition, misfires & stagger issues after having tuned fuel via CO (with the final arbiter being HP or BSFC) and ignition advance via NOX (with the final arbiter being HP or BSFC).

I'm pleased to note that posters at http://drriders.com/topic3733.html have exhibited awareness of at least some of the above-mentioned.

Regards,

Derek
Fair enough. Their results seem to be pretty good though, my bike is running better than it was before and fuel economy has improved significantly. It certainly seems a good place to start for FCR owners with Aus/NZ fuel.
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:59 PM   #68166
canuckAME
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I put a TM 40 on this summer. With the BST40 I was in the 55-60 MPG range ( Imperial gallon it's larger than a US gal ) With the TM40 it's gone up to 60-65 MPG. Have a 15 tooth CS sprocket and a 45 tooth rear sprocket.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:04 PM   #68167
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottbed View Post
I bought an '02 in '08....the first two years I got 47-48 mpg....then it slowly and steadily dropped to high 30s. I soaked the carb in pine-sol, had it professionally cleaned by a mechanic, new jets, new gaskets/o-rings. I couldn't make the mileage better. Performance also deteriorated along with the mileage...surging and other symptoms. I even tried a used but known good running carb and it didn't run much better (but it had been bastardized with my carb so maybe something came over from my carb that was the problem).
Were the slide guide, emulsion tube, slide and/or jet needle replaced?

Regards,

Derek
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:14 PM   #68168
TinkerinWstuff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Load Clear View Post
I know there is a lot of discussion here on fuel economy, jetting and so forth. But under what conditions does Suzuki expect 56 mpg? I have a stock '12 and barely get 42 mpg; regardless of the conditions - highway, city (haven't been off road yet). That's 25% less than what they claim. I do not ride hard - hell I have barely opened the throttle.

I get there are probably some things I can do to get better mileage, but 42 is not close to the claim.
10% ethanol blends may be contributing to lower mileage numbers.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:27 PM   #68169
Feelers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Load Clear View Post
I know there is a lot of discussion here on fuel economy, jetting and so forth. But under what conditions does Suzuki expect 56 mpg? I have a stock '12 and barely get 42 mpg; regardless of the conditions - highway, city (haven't been off road yet). That's 25% less than what they claim. I do not ride hard - hell I have barely opened the throttle.

I get there are probably some things I can do to get better mileage, but 42 is not close to the claim.
I get 56 or 58 mpg (American gallons) with the typical 10% ethanol fuel. This is with the BST40. My bike is a 2001, so the same as yours, but older. I don't know what to tell you. Is your bike totally stock? Are you built like a parachute?
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:16 PM   #68170
ArgoBloke
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2011 DR650 mileage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feelers View Post
I get 56 or 58 mpg (American gallons) with the typical 10% ethanol fuel. This is with the BST40. My bike is a 2001, so the same as yours, but older. I don't know what to tell you. Is your bike totally stock? Are you built like a parachute?
FWIW this is the milage I get on my 2011 DR.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:43 PM   #68171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
It is not true the the needle is wedged in its hole in the slide in stock form. If it were, then it could not simultaneously be preloaded against the downstream side of the emulsion tube.

Regards,

Derek
Just to be clear, when you are saying the needle is preloaded against the side of the emulsion tube, I am assuming you mean actually contacting it (metal on metal so to speak) ----- correct?

I was under the impression (from previous conversations with you about this issue) that the needle was cocked in the slide bore (by the shelf in the bottom of the slide) to reduce rotation and prevent the needle from banging around. You didn't clarify at the time about it being preloaded against the emulsion tube, so I assumed you meant touching (preloaded against) the side of the bore --- my bad.

Thanks for clearing it up!


Edit: yea I know carb stuff can get boring to many, but I wanted to make sure I was clear. Thanks for your patience!
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:51 PM   #68172
motoracer51
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I'm getting close to 70 MPG with my 2007. All stock, and I don't really beat it.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:26 PM   #68173
jessepitt
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Location: Redmond Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Load Clear View Post
I know there is a lot of discussion here on fuel economy, jetting and so forth. But under what conditions does Suzuki expect 56 mpg? I have a stock '12 and barely get 42 mpg; regardless of the conditions - highway, city (haven't been off road yet). That's 25% less than what they claim. I do not ride hard - hell I have barely opened the throttle.

I get there are probably some things I can do to get better mileage, but 42 is not close to the claim.
How many miles on your bike? It will loosen up and mileage should improove as it breaks in if it hasnt already.
I had a 99 that regularly got fifty plus. My '11 with 1800 miles gets about 45mpg. It started around 40 new.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:29 PM   #68174
ShadyRascal
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Location: the Root, Western Montana
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My 2003 has GSXR muffler, some holes in the airbox lid, and Dyno jets with the 150 main and needle 2nd notch from the top. I'm at 3500 feet and most everything is up from here.

Today rode 500 miles, got 45 on one tank really hauling ass on the highway 75-80 mph, got 59 on one tank where I didn't think I'd make the next fuel stop (nowhere, Idaho) and rode real easy and tucked down to relieve air resistance, and about 52 on the other tanks.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:30 PM   #68175
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumlover View Post
Just to be clear, when you are saying the needle is preloaded against the side of the emulsion tube, I am assuming you mean actually contacting it (metal on metal so to speak) ----- correct?
Yes.
Quote:
I was under the impression (from previous conversations with you about this issue) that the needle was cocked in the slide bore (by the shelf in the bottom of the slide) to reduce rotation and prevent the needle from banging around.
The needle is indeed cocked in the slide's needle bore, but when the components are in new condition, it is not wedged. The cocking does reduce rotation and the amount the needle bangs around. It also reduces orbiting. However, inhibiting rotation depends on a tight fitting clip and white spacer as well.

The reason emulsion tube wear becomes such an issue at a certain level of slide guide wear is that the needle does eventually become wedged in the slide's needle hole, but at an angle opposite to that of the original preload. At this point, the needle can no longer pivot out of the way, meaning that there will be hard contact against the downstream side of the emulsion tube's bore.
Quote:
You didn't clarify at the time about it being preloaded against the emulsion tube, so I assumed you meant touching (preloaded against) the side of the bore
Sorry for not having been clearer.
Quote:
--- my bad.
I don't follow.
Quote:
Thanks for clearing it up!
You're welcome!

Regards,

Derek
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