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Old 11-15-2012, 09:43 PM   #71131
johnkol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
If your suspension was dialed in at least 80% of what you are blaming on the frame would disappear.
I doubt it; I believe I can separate suspension deficiencies from frame problems.

In any case, I have other problems with the DR too, mainly weight, but also a general inability to connect with the bike: I can't pinpoint it, but for some reason I cannot change positions easily, cannot weigh the pegs, don't seem to get any feedback from the bike... In short, it feels like I'm seating on a giant jello, with no tactile sense of what the bike is doing. There are so many things wrong with this bike that I really don't feel like spending good money after bad chasing all its idiosyncrasies; I'd rather leave it as is and enjoy it for what it is: a cheap, reliable machine.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:54 PM   #71132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
But see, I think the stock seat is great! I did a 3-day, 1200 mile ride and had no problem with it -- quite the opposite actually.
I was fine on it too for 1200 miles in one day...solo. With a passenger on the back, a Seat Concepts kit is considerably more comfortable.

Quote:
You guys are fortunate: the things that bother you can be easily replaced, the things that bother me don't have a solution.
I still haven't figured out an easy solution for creating the passenger-toting spaciousness of a DL on this thing, but Phreaky Phil might have.

Quote:
You may have said this half-jokingly, but that's exactly what a frame flex feels like: as if the frame has cracked. The first time I rode my XR on a dirt road I immediately stopped after hundred feet because I thought the frame must had cracked... until more knowledgable people explained to me that this is indeed how these bikes behaved.

Gussets and extra tubing? I wouldn't have done that even in my racing days when I was broke and had a lot more free time; nowadays with free time in very short supply and no financial problems, the solution is easy: new bike. The problem is, which one?
Half-jokingly, for sure, but definitely half-serious as well, on multiple counts. (I never go full-serious. It's a risk I'm not willing to take.) I know that at least one DR owner has gusseted almost every tube joint on his bike. I don't know of anybody that has replaced the stock "large-diameter, thin-walled, mild-steel" frame tubing with stiffer chromoly, but I have actually considered building a DR frame (partial or entire) out of chromoly tube...with gussets. For me, it would be a fun project with the bender, the machine shop, and the TIG.

A lot of perception also depends on perspective. Riding some crazy, flexy-flyer, widowmaker bikes from the '70s and '80s, right now, could actually change your subjected-to-the-biasing-of-time perception of the DR's flexiness.

You might also have unknown issues with bearings, bushings, races, or whatever. I think you'll have to send your DR to make the rounds through all of us here at ADVRider.com, for a comprehensive evaluation after it resides a month or so at each of our abodes. We WILL get to the bottom of this "flex issue" that you're having.

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Old 11-15-2012, 09:59 PM   #71133
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There is no frame flex problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyP View Post
I'm definitely not saying I disagree with you because I'm totally new to motorcycles, but I'm an obsessive researcher and in the few months I spent reading everything I could find about this class of motorcycle before buying my DR650 I never once saw this mentioned amongst all of the faults that anyone here will readily admit to.

And perhaps even more interesting is that if you google "DR650 frame flex" the only relevant result is this thread. Dang Google gets this indexed quickly. It seems like you might be the first person Google has seen type these words. Again, I'm not claiming any knowledge on the subject, just an observation. Maybe forks could be the problem?



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Old 11-15-2012, 09:59 PM   #71134
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Originally Posted by TRAVELGUY View Post
Hey guys am I missing something? Doesn't the stock rear shock only have rebound adjustment?
Just let him go, he's on a roll!
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:04 PM   #71135
TRAVELGUY
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Lots of talk here lately about KTM 200 EXC's. I loved mine (both of them). The best single track dirt bike I ever owned and that is one of many, others Husky's, Penton's, Suzuki's, Yamaha's, 40 years history on dirt bikes. But I don't think it's the right bike for me to take for a month long tour of mainland Mexico and total south to north of Baja this coming January carrying 80 lbs of gear on the back. But I think I better take my flexy frame (I've never felt the flex) piss poor suspension DR650, I did spend $600 to up grade the rear and front ends, many people I know spend that on their KTM's suspensions also. It's the right bike for that kind of trip after having done some 25,000 miles of Central America pavement/gravel/dirt during the previous 4 years. I would not dream of taking one of my 200 EXC's on this trip.

Bikes are like the tools in the garage. Some high quality and high tech some not but when you need a cast iron anvil it sure does the job. I often refer to my DR650 as a currently manufactured antique or a anvil with a electic starter and I love it being what it is for the riding I'm doing at this time in my life. A month or so ago I loaded my DR up with camping gear and supplies for a 5 day 350 mile one way highway ride to North Carolina. Rode two days of gravel and then pavement back home. Of the eighty plus bikes I've owned in my life I consider the DR650 probably one of the most enjoyable.

Wish I lived in the Bay area because it sounds like there will be a used one on Craigslist soon and should go cheap since the owner hates it.

TravelGuy
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:13 PM   #71136
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I think your reference is to my friend Dave. He did the gussets to handle his large rear luggage for total South America tour that he has planned.

TravelGuy

I know that at least one DR owner has gusseted almost every tube joint on his bike.

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Old 11-15-2012, 10:13 PM   #71137
heirhead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
I doubt it; I believe I can separate suspension deficiencies from frame problems.

In any case, I have other problems with the DR too, mainly weight, but also a general inability to connect with the bike: I can't pinpoint it, but for some reason I cannot change positions easily, cannot weigh the pegs, don't seem to get any feedback from the bike... In short, it feels like I'm seating on a giant jello, with no tactile sense of what the bike is doing. There are so many things wrong with this bike that I really don't feel like spending good money after bad chasing all its idiosyncrasies; I'd rather leave it as is and enjoy it for what it is: a cheap, reliable machine.
Hello,

Please sell the POS so I can read about something different that I haven't read before, like tires or what oil to use.
I'll stay with my Flexi-Flyer but if I want to ride something HiTech I'll go with my TW200
as it says ELECTRIC on the side!!

Bye,

Heirhead
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:39 PM   #71138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
By "flexible" I mean large amplitude oscillation modes, and by "uncontrollable" I mean no targeted damping of said oscillations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
The frame flexes are very evident once you step on a (even mildly) rough dirt road: the wheels are not tracking on the same longitudinal plane, they oscillate left and right all the time, independently of each other. This phenomenon is not due to suspension components (which only allow movement on the vertical plane), but it's the frame flexing from the forces impacted on it from the road imperfections.

You can experience the same thing on asphalt when you cross a longitudinal seam at a shallow angle: the bike will wiggle a bit as you cross the seam; it's not as pronounced as on a dirt road, but you can get an idea of what is going on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnkol View Post
Modern mechanical design practices necessitate CAD usage and FEA modelling, and these tools allow the designers to precisely calculate resonant frequencies of the frame and apply appropriate damping. The DR frame exhibiting large amplitude resonances that are essentially undamped means...
So, the high amplitude resonant frequency vibrations/oscillations happen mainly on dirt? So, they are not RPM dependent? They must be dependent on evenly spaced bumps then - like a washboarded road... But then, a single bump over a seam can cause it... So everything causes this?

Can you give us an RPM to look for this phenomenon so we can see what you mean - if it's RPM induced. Would I be able to put my bike on a stand and rev it to a certain RPM and watch the tail wag? Is it driveline related? Would I have to be engaged in gear?

The seam thing is fully suspension related as the tire is airborne for a split second during the drop. When the tire hits the ground, it's in a slightly different spot than it otherwise would be and feels like the tire skipped. My CBR does this pretty badly. That small force probably also causes the forks to twist a bit as they are pretty twisty. The wheel and handlebars are not rigid at all as you can see if you've ever tried to fix twisted bars after a fall. And riding on a seam is hardly enough force to flex a frame.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:48 PM   #71139
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[QUOTE=johnkol;20054805] don't seem to get any feedback from the bike... In short, it feels like I'm seating on a giant jello, with no tactile sense of what the bike is doing. /QUOTE]
Sounds exactly like the stock suspension. Easily fixed with proper springs and valving.
You can feel the frame flex? But you can't get any other feedback from the bike?

I agree that you should get yourself something else because you will never believe that the DR can be a fabulous bike.

*************************************************

Alright guys, I'm outta here!
Leaving tomorrow at daybreak to spend 9 days in and around Death Valley.
If I can get my frame to flex enough to be a problem I'll be sure to let y'all know.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #71140
Feelers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
You can feel the frame flex? But you can't get any other feedback from the bike?

I agree that you should get yourself something else because you will never believe that the DR can be a fabulous bike.

*************************************************

Alright guys, I'm outta here!
Leaving tomorrow at daybreak to spend 9 days in and around Death Valley.
If I can get my frame to flex enough to be a problem I'll be sure to let y'all know.
Yeah, he obviously has his mind made up and needs something else that he might have positive preconceived notions of. It sounds like he had his mind made up before he bought it, and is just blaming the frame so that he is forced to get rid of it. Whatever.... It doesn't make me any less happy with my own DR.

And, have a great time in Death Valley!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:02 PM   #71141
johnkol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRAVELGUY View Post
Hey guys am I missing something? Doesn't the stock rear shock only have rebound adjustment?
No, the stock shock only has compression damping; rebound damping is controlled by a collar at the bottom of the shock assembly. You can take a look at the manual if you don't believe me.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:18 PM   #71142
heirhead
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Death Valley Ride

Hello,

Man, would I like to join you in Death Valley. Great time of year.

I cannot due to the fact that you helped me lower my dr so low,( thanks, perfect.flex is all gone) , that the ambient temperature related to the low altitude and high frequency of my ass falling over the bars on evenly spaced bumps will dampen my spirits.
Thus I will stay home in hot oscillating bubbling water and drink some spirits instead.
I hope you have something other to ride than a slinky, oops, dr650.
Have a wonderful time from all.

Heirhead
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:30 PM   #71143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
*************************************************

Alright guys, I'm outta here!
Leaving tomorrow at daybreak to spend 9 days in and around Death Valley.
If I can get my frame to flex enough to be a problem I'll be sure to let y'all know.
Have fun, In early january this year, I rode around death valley for three days on my 06 dr650 - had a great time!

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Old 11-15-2012, 11:40 PM   #71144
johnkol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
I believe you refer to Honda's "Tuned Flex" technology.
No, "Tuned Flex" was something else. Technically similar, but conceptually different.

The flexible frames on the XRs were a huge success, as sales and longevity of that series testify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
IMHO, the DR650 does not really have the HP to initiate noticeable frame flex.
Nothing to do with power; the flex is due to lateral forces, not longitudinal ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
YES! It will move around riding of rough dirt roads! It weighs up near 400 lbs., it's not a 260 lb. race bike.
No, it shouldn't "move around", weight has nothing to do with this. Think about it, if weight was a factor, then given the fact that a 20-lb mountain bike moves a tiny bit, then my 240-lb KTM should be flexing like a rubber band; it does not.

The frame is always constructed so as to handle the stresses applied to it -- and the amount of stress also depends on the weight of the bike. So a heavier bike means higher forces applied to the frame, which further means that a more stout frame needs to be constructed. The end result is the same: no "moving around", irrespective of weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Feel your handlebars .. they are rubber mounted ... and low and behold ... they FLEX!
Pegs are rubber mounted too. Different sensation, nothing to do with frame flexing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
The '92 Husky you spoke of brings back some memories ... or nightmares? Was this magic Husky a 2 stroke?
It was a 2T Swedish design.

I got a '91 Honda CR125 after this; it was a really good bike, but nowhere near the WR250.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:11 AM   #71145
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Cool2

Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
*************************************************

Alright guys, I'm outta here!
Leaving tomorrow at daybreak to spend 9 days in and around Death Valley.
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"BTW, I don't do style. It's a dirt bike, not some girlie dress-up thing." -
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