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Old 02-05-2013, 08:00 PM   #73516
blackcap
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Location: Wollongong aka stink-town, Australia
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another piece of the puzzle. a bit shorter this time due to the internet in indonesia being a little slow. this took 10hrs to upload.

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Old 02-05-2013, 09:37 PM   #73517
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feelers View Post
I'm just curious. What benefit does short choppy heat cycles confer that longer heat cycles would not? Also, what changes in the engine as the number of heat cycles goes up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
What I forgot: Break in isn't only about ring seal. Things like gears, timing chains, bearings and tappets all have a break in period. There are machining imperfections in many things and allowing to metal parts to "find their home" can be in important process. Many are done by the first time you warm the engine up; some may take longer. I firmly believe in a couple of engine warm ups to allow the metals to swell to their running clearances before any hard pulls.


Or....ride it like you stole it.
Plus ONE ... another old school guy! YEA!



I learned everything (I think I know ) about heat cycles regarding break in from reading Kevin Cameron for the last 30 years ... and from breaking in my newly rebuilt 2 stroke race bikes for 10 years. I never had an engine failure on any race bike in this time ... including running through Baja flat out in 90F heat for hours and hours.

The theory is you don't want to get a BRAND NEW engine TOO HOT on its first run. Things are tight. First start up it heats up quickly ... metal expands ... and it expands at different rates (steel vs. Alu vs. brass) As it expands contact pressure with mating surfaces increases. Expansion and contraction of metal helps the mating surfaces wear in to each other. If too hot too soon you can get uneven expansion and develop Hot Spots. Not good. You don't want hot spots.

If the engine gets TOO HOT when its brand new ... tolerances can become too tight with too much pressure and heat ... this can do damage to cylinder, rings, piston, leading to shortened life of the motor. Once several heat cycles are completed the mating surfaces are polished up pretty good and can tolerate more heat as their is less rubbing friction. As the motor loosens up it can tolerate more pressure from heat expansion.

Also there is less pressure as rough spots and uneven areas are polished down from contact, smoothed out and flushed with cooling oil.

I mostly only ever did 2 strokes. A brand new two stroke motor can be broken in ... in just 30 minutes. Ready to race. Not so a four stroke ... as rings need to bed in and seat. Overheating a brand new ... and very tight new piston ring is not a good idea. (according to Kevin Cameron of course)

As I said earlier ... everyone is their own expert on break in. I trust Kevin Cameron's ideas. It's true, two strokes are different than 4 strokes. But the basics tend to cross over, IMHO.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:02 PM   #73518
falcore
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Well that makes a lot of sense.

Other thing I was always told was don't labour the engine. But you really should never do that anyways.

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Old 02-06-2013, 12:47 AM   #73519
Spirtwolf15x
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Location: Vancouver, Canada
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Well first 40km down, no problems so far I think. No oil pissing, no "omgwtf?!" noises. Only 9960 more to go! XD

Here's a pic for all of ya.


Spirtwolf15x screwed with this post 02-06-2013 at 01:06 AM
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:14 AM   #73520
gofast1320
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Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Middle Tennessee
Oddometer: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
What is the throttle position when the problem occurs?Was the bike ever stored for any length of time?The fuel screw should be used to adjust the idle mixture. It is not applicable to other openings.

Regards,

Derek
Thanks Motolab and Adv Grifter the answers ARE- Throttle position, not sure was on level highway and I'm a fat boy and I had it twisted enough to run 55-60. Bike stored- Yes, PO broke some toes and bike sat for several months. 10-4 on idle mixture only.
Run Sea Foam through it? not yet, I did drain tank and fill with fresh fuel with StaBil. Petcock screen is clean. Airbox is stock and left side cover is on the bike.
First time I filled it with fresh fuel, I left petcock on prime and the carb float or needle let fuel through and filled up air box with fuel along with some running into crankcase. Changed oil and filter and got all that taken care of and if carb float or needle valve were malfunctioning due to dirt or funk or whatever that has been reduced or cleaned out by fuel flow from riding and filling tank and riding some more. No further problems with fuel leaking. It seems to be running better every time I ride it. I did lose one of the screws on the airbox lid and it is held on with only the remaining 3 or 4 screws. I never thought about that till just now. I'll put the replacement screw in the air box side plate and report back. Thanks guys
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:33 AM   #73521
eakins
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Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
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wow! and it thought riding my motorcycle all over Mexico was crazy. that takes it up a few notches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
another piece of the puzzle. a bit shorter this time due to the internet in indonesia being a little slow. this took 10hrs to upload.

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http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
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http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956350
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:36 AM   #73522
eakins
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nice. now get a skid plate and start rocking that bike in the dirt.
maybe add a better seat http://www.seatconcepts.com/products...358&id=7268100 so yer ass is happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirtwolf15x View Post
Well first 40km down, no problems so far I think. No oil pissing, no "omgwtf?!" noises. Only 9960 more to go! XD

Here's a pic for all of ya.

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Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Cycle World Adventure Rally:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956350
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:02 AM   #73523
Mambo Dave
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Location: Pompano Beach, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcap View Post
another piece of the puzzle. a bit shorter this time due to the internet in indonesia being a little slow. this took 10hrs to upload.

Good stuff. Did you alter your bike much, suspension wise, to handle the constant punishment?

What bars are those? they seem to have a higher rise than stock.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:16 AM   #73524
Spirtwolf15x
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Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Oddometer: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
nice. now get a skid plate and start rocking that bike in the dirt.
maybe add a better seat http://www.seatconcepts.com/products...358&id=7268100 so yer ass is happy.
I actually like the stock seat, nice and firm, they way a seat should be. Skid plate, barkbusters, proper grip shields and other add-ons will come in 960km after the first service.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:56 AM   #73525
NordieBoy
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Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Kiwiland
Oddometer: 7,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
The whole point of the MotoMan method is to bed the rings in properly.

We rebuilt my '79 XR250 and I used a fun race day to run it in. It was run for 10 seconds before riding it on the day. Not running in hard, just taking it easy, lots of smooth, varied throttle and engine braking. Every lap you could feel it getting stronger. Oil changed that evening. 6 years later we replaced the rings. Got accused many times of running a 305 kit.
Maybe 20 3hr x-countries, 3 6hrs and countless classic MX races.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:20 AM   #73526
poppawheelie
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Location: Central Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Plus ONE ... another old school guy! YEA!

I learned everything (I think I know ) about heat cycles regarding break in from reading Kevin Cameron for the last 30 years ... and from breaking in my newly rebuilt 2 stroke race bikes for 10 years. I never had an engine failure on any race bike in this time ... including running through Baja flat out in 90F heat for hours and hours.

The theory is you don't want to get a BRAND NEW engine TOO HOT on its first run. Things are tight. First start up it heats up quickly ... metal expands ... and it expands at different rates (steel vs. Alu vs. brass) As it expands contact pressure with mating surfaces increases. Expansion and contraction of metal helps the mating surfaces wear in to each other. If too hot too soon you can get uneven expansion and develop Hot Spots. Not good. You don't want hot spots.

If the engine gets TOO HOT when its brand new ... tolerances can become too tight with too much pressure and heat ... this can do damage to cylinder, rings, piston, leading to shortened life of the motor. Once several heat cycles are completed the mating surfaces are polished up pretty good and can tolerate more heat as their is less rubbing friction. As the motor loosens up it can tolerate more pressure from heat expansion.

Also there is less pressure as rough spots and uneven areas are polished down from contact, smoothed out and flushed with cooling oil.

I mostly only ever did 2 strokes. A brand new two stroke motor can be broken in ... in just 30 minutes. Ready to race. Not so a four stroke ... as rings need to bed in and seat. Overheating a brand new ... and very tight new piston ring is not a good idea. (according to Kevin Cameron of course)

As I said earlier ... everyone is their own expert on break in. I trust Kevin Cameron's ideas. It's true, two strokes are different than 4 strokes. But the basics tend to cross over, IMHO.
You worked with Kevin Cameron!? WOW!
A DR650 isn't 2 stroke, but it's old enough technology that an old fashioned break-in is a good idea. Can't hurt.
Yeah, I used to race Suzuki 2 strokes. Love 'em.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:44 AM   #73527
Adv Grifter
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Location: Passing ADV Stalkers in California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppawheelie View Post
You worked with Kevin Cameron!? WOW!
A DR650 isn't 2 stroke, but it's old enough technology that an old fashioned break-in is a good idea. Can't hurt.
Yeah, I used to race Suzuki 2 strokes. Love 'em.
nope, never worked with Cameron, never even met him ... just read his work in Cycle World.

I hear he hasn't ridden a bike in over 20 years. Still a good guy, good historian and was a good race pipe builder back in the day.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:26 PM   #73528
poppawheelie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
nope, never worked with Cameron, never even met him ... just read his work in Cycle World.

I hear he hasn't ridden a bike in over 20 years. Still a good guy, good historian and was a good race pipe builder back in the day.
Oh, OK. Yeah, we can learn a lot reading his stuff... and Peter Egan, and Clement Salvadori. When Salvadori said the Continental Divide Trail was the most beautiful ride he ever did, that was enough for me. I did it. I'll be heading back out that way with my DR650 this Summer. Just returned from riding Ecuador on a DR650.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:42 PM   #73529
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppawheelie View Post
Oh, OK. Yeah, we can learn a lot reading his stuff... and Peter Egan, and Clement Salvadori. When Salvadori said the Continental Divide Trail was the most beautiful ride he ever did, that was enough for me. I did it. I'll be heading back out that way with my DR650 this Summer. Just returned from riding Ecuador on a DR650.
Cool. Did you ride down or rent a DR locally? I hear DR's are for sale there.
I've made several trips to Ecuador over the years. I was there screwing around in the 70's, returned a few times after for work. I was only there two and a half months but did manage to get to know Quito a bit, spent time in Banos, Esmeraldas, Riobamba, Cuenca and of course the markets in Otovalo.
I learned to eat Qui .. and like it. I was there when an attempted Coup (1975) happened. It was foiled but interesting to wake up to 50cal machine gun fire at 6 am. I was two blocks away.
Some great roads ... never did have a bike there.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:36 PM   #73530
MADurstewitz
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Location: Joisey, not far from NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planemanx15 View Post
Is the motoman method really the preferred? I have a friend who is a mechanic that said a lot of problems can steam from running a brand new engine hard in the beginning of its life. Then again, he might just be saying it for the business. Does anybody have an engine with a ton of miles\Kms on it that has used the Motoman method? My main concern is oil leaking past the rings.
Used that method when I did the 790 kit on my bike. 11,000 miles ago. At that time I also replaced all of the internal bearings with SKF bearings, new valves, guides and seals and a few other things. The bike runs 100% better now than it did when it was new. Gobs of smooth power and great mileage on the rare occasions that I ride conservatively.

Total mileage is 36k or so. I'd have to look.
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