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Old 03-10-2013, 10:25 PM   #74581
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
You post alot of variables that people should check when having problems (thank you!), but often there are not answers/solutions to what people should do to fix the issues. Granted people are not responding so well with throttle position feedback for solutions and that's not your fault.
I've posted how to tell at which throttle position the problem is occurring at. I've posted which circuits are responsible for what throttle positions. I and others have also posted various methods to determine whether the problem is rich or lean. I have explained that it's fairly easy to "tell where you are" once you bump up against the most minor of lean misbehavior (with the caveat that doing so can be dangerous depending on compression, exhaust flow, timing and quality of fuel). People have been given all of the information to tune themselves within the confines of what is possible without a dyno. If they can't figure it out, they are not following the instructions for whatever reason (fear of damaging the engine is a good reason), or they are up against the limitations of what can be done without gas analysis or HP readings.
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How about a to do list (a baseline of mods to do) for those with stock carbs who want better performance.
It sounds to me like you want the answer without doing the work. That's unfortunately not how it works.
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Where to start and see how the bike works?
You can start where you are (perhaps temporarily using better fuel to prevent damage). The engine will tell you what it wants, but not without your listening to what it is trying to tell you.
Quote:

-adjust pilot jet to where?
-what jet sizes?
-what if anything to do to the carb?
-where to set the needle?
-check and set the float to what height?
-drill another hole in the slide or not?
-mods to the airbox?

get my idea?
Yes. I get the idea that, once again, you want the answer without doing the work. I have made one specific recommendation, where the trend is strong enough to in my mind guarantee the validity, and that is to stay away from the DJ needle. There is no instance I can think of where such a shape will be useful for a DR, and especially not with airbox mods, where the change in shape from stock is in a direction exactly opposite of what would be beneficial.
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Then maybe a aftermarket pipe list and a list to check when you have off idle stumble.
Perhaps you would like to provide me with a bike, a selection of pipes, and perhaps pay my bills while I tune all of the combinations of parts we can conceive of, realizing of course that all we would end up with are trends, as bikes with the same combinations of parts may still run differently and want different jetting. I have given a list of things to check when there is an off idle stumble several times. I've also requested that people clearly define what they mean by "off idle". In most cases, no clarification was given. I can give no further advice without knowing precisely what throttle position is being referred to, as I can't determine what circuit is responsible without having that information.
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You seem to have the same conversation over and over with people checking in, but it does not seem they've responded that it's been resolved.
I'm pretty sure they have, but if they hadn't what would that prove? Are you implying that the information I have given is incorrect?
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You recommend the non-US adjustable needle to tune and richen the bike. It's the same shape as the US needle. Yes?
Correct.
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So then you can raise it to richen (or lower it to lean) the bike.
Yes, raising the needle richens the mixture, and lowering it leans the mixture.
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If it's the same shape then why would adding a washer shim under the US needle not have the same effect as lower the clip on a non-US needle. Both methods raise the needle up higher and thus come out of the emulsion tube faster thus releasing more gas. The position of the slide is the same either method. Am I missing something here???
Yes, you are missing that for a given intersection of throttle position and rpm, shimming the needle clip lowers the slide rather than raising the needle (unless the slide is against either stop).

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:49 PM   #74582
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumlover View Post
Why do you fail to see that at its now "lower" position the needle is higher in the needle jet (with a shim) for that position, and that also has an impact.
There is only one condition under which what you are saying could be true, and that's if, for a given intersection of throttle position and rpm, it's the slide rather than the butterfly that's causing the most restriction.
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It still sounds ridiculous to me because I think it is bad advice.
That it's ridiculous because it's bad is not really an argument. That said, it is possible that there may be some misunderstanding about how this can be done in a relatively safe manner. I do not advocate riding around and looking at the marks at whatever random time a symptom crops up. Rather, I suggest opening the throttle to each of the marks in a premeditated manner and letting the engine accelerate through the range to whatever rpm it will (based on how well/poorly it is tuned - top gear usually gives the best data and acceleration won't be as brisk). It should certainly possible to find a stretch of road with little traffic and no driveways/side streets to do this on, especially since the largest opening that requires the use of a mark is 1/4. 1/16 and 1/8 openings are so small that they can be tested in a medium sized empty parking lot.
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And no that doesn't apply to everything I wouldn't do, just the stuff "I think" is ridiculous.
How do you respond to people who think that things you like to do/advocate are ridiculous?

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:08 PM   #74583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
There is only one condition under which what you are saying could be true, and that's if, for a given intersection of throttle position and rpm, it's the slide rather than the butterfly that's causing the most restriction.That it's ridiculous because it's bad is not really an argument. That said, it is possible that there may be some misunderstanding about how this can be done in a relatively safe manner. I do not advocate riding around and looking at the marks at whatever random time a symptom crops up. Rather, I suggest opening the throttle to each of the marks in a premeditated manner and letting the engine accelerate through the range to whatever rpm it will (based on how well/poorly it is tuned - top gear usually gives the best data and acceleration won't be as brisk). It should certainly possible to find a stretch of road with little traffic and no driveways/side streets to do this on, especially since the largest opening that requires the use of a mark is 1/4. 1/16 and 1/8 openings are so small that they can be tested in a medium sized empty parking lot.
How do you respond to people who think that things you like to do/advocate are ridiculous?

Regards,

Derek

You either totally miss my point about needle position , find it irrelevant, or just enjoy confusing the issue. I really don't care anymore!

I see no need to continue to justify my opinions to you about what I think is ridiculous or why. I have already commented more then enough.

Good Night
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:45 PM   #74584
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumlover View Post
You either totally miss my point about needle position , find it irrelevant, or just enjoy confusing the issue.
None of the above.
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I really don't care anymore!
Well, that's unfortunate. I much prefer it when people reach an understanding together.
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I see no need to continue to justify my opinions to you about what I think is ridiculous or why. I have already commented more then enough.
As you wish...

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:10 AM   #74585
doug s.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumlover View Post
You either totally miss my point about needle position , find it irrelevant, or just enjoy confusing the issue.
if i correctly understand what derek is saying, it's that, if you shim a stock needle, you change the spring tension, which lowers the slide. if you get an adjustable needle and raise it w/o shimming, the needle is raised, but the spring tension remains the same; therefore you have no lowering of the slide.

of course, i could also be completely off the mark here!

doug s.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:30 AM   #74586
Mambo Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug s. View Post
if i correctly understand what derek is saying, it's that, if you shim a stock needle, you change the spring tension, which lowers the slide. if you get an adjustable needle and raise it w/o shimming, the needle is raised, but the spring tension remains the same; therefore you have no lowering of the slide.

of course, i could also be completely off the mark here!

doug s.
You may be on to what he's saying.

But then it would hit the wall of what the suspension guys say about springs - that their rate and tension don't change by pre-load, which is what a shim would do, unless they were a progressive-rate spring and it took up some lower-rate squish of the spring.

Not that I care that much one way or the other - my DR650 with ProCycle's needle and kit seems to run just fine. When push comes to shove, and when the needle wears the slide, I'll buy one of the better carb options out there.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:34 AM   #74587
Rusty Rocket
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Any of you people have a Wee Strom along with the DR650 willing to send me a PM about your observations as to the dirt ability of the Wee and the road abilty of the DR and how much of an overlap there is. I have some friends with WeeStroms at are tyring to talk me into adding one. I'd love to have more bikes, but is there enough difference to be worth it.

I thank you in advance for you thoughts. No need to clog up this thread with this talk, unless you feel it adds to the value of this thread.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:45 AM   #74588
Rumlover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug s. View Post
if i correctly understand what derek is saying, it's that, if you shim a stock needle, you change the spring tension, which lowers the slide. if you get an adjustable needle and raise it w/o shimming, the needle is raised, but the spring tension remains the same; therefore you have no lowering of the slide.

of course, i could also be completely off the mark here!

doug s.

I will try to explain my position one last time (I really regret bringing it up at this point)

Assuming the carb is running on the needle circuit:
I understand that preloading the spring will cause the slide to be slightly lower then previous.
However the shimmed needle will still be raised in the slide. So unles the loss of slide height is greater then the amount the needle is raised by the shim, the needle will still be higher in the needle jet and flow more fuel.

Also the shimmed needle will always be higher in the needle jet for any given slide height. Motolabs explanation doesn't seem to think that is significant and makes it sound (to me) like the needle and slide are working independently. I know that wasn't his intent, but that's how it came across.

Anyway I was simply trying to point out that I don't think the loss of slide height is greater then the gain at the shimmed needle. And even if it is the flow through the needle jet will still be higher for the new slide height when compared to the same slide height for an unshimmed needle.

Hope that is clear as mud
Just one mans opinion

Rumlover screwed with this post 03-11-2013 at 07:22 AM
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:46 AM   #74589
ShadyRascal
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I have both and love the smoothness of the Wee on the road. The Wee is fine on gravel roads but any kind of mountain fire road with tighter corners the Wee gets to be a pig real quick.

Overall I'd say the DR is a better street bike than the Wee is a dirt bike. It's just more of a comfort thing for me with the Wee, I travel longer distances pretty regularly. But whenever it gets dirty, I want to be on the DR, and some roads or trails I'll just avoid with the Wee. All depends on your terrain and length of trip I guess.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:49 AM   #74590
Emmbeedee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumlover View Post
I will try to explain my position one last ime (I really regret bringing it up at this point)

Assuming the carb is running on the needle circuit:
I understand that preloading the spring will cause the slide to be slightly lower then previous.
However the needle will still be raised in the slide. So unles the loss of slide height is greater then the amount the needle is raised by the shim, the needle will still be higher in the needle jet and flow more fuel.

Also the shimmed needle will always be higher in the needle jet for any given slide height. Motolabs explanation doesn't seem to think that is significant and makes it sound (to me) like the needle and slide are working independently. I know that wasn't his intent, but that's how it came across.

Anyway I was simply trying to point out that I don't think the loss of slide height is greater then the gain at the needle.

Hope that is clear as mud
Just one mans opinion
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:02 AM   #74591
Rusty Rocket
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
What kind of oil are you running in it?




















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Old 03-11-2013, 07:05 AM   #74592
Kommando
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Originally Posted by Rusty Rocket View Post


pew! pew! pew!

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Old 03-11-2013, 07:10 AM   #74593
Rumlover
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Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
What kind of oil are you running in it?


The slippery stuff works best!
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:16 AM   #74594
dman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadyRascal View Post
I have both and love the smoothness of the Wee on the road. The Wee is fine on gravel roads but any kind of mountain fire road with tighter corners the Wee gets to be a pig real quick.

Overall I'd say the DR is a better street bike than the Wee is a dirt bike. It's just more of a comfort thing for me with the Wee, I travel longer distances pretty regularly. But whenever it gets dirty, I want to be on the DR, and some roads or trails I'll just avoid with the Wee. All depends on your terrain and length of trip I guess.
I have both also, and concur with this. It also depends on your skill. The weight, limited suspension travel, and tires (though that can be changed) intimidate me from doing anything too rough on my Wee. Based on what I've seen on various Wee threads, others can ride these bikes almost anywhere.

-dman
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:26 AM   #74595
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+1 There is very little overlap of performance. I like both bikes very much. Their just different tools for different needs. If I could only own one bike it would probably be the Wee Strom but I find myself riding my DR the most.

TravelGuy

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadyRascal View Post
I have both and love the smoothness of the Wee on the road. The Wee is fine on gravel roads but any kind of mountain fire road with tighter corners the Wee gets to be a pig real quick.

Overall I'd say the DR is a better street bike than the Wee is a dirt bike. It's just more of a comfort thing for me with the Wee, I travel longer distances pretty regularly. But whenever it gets dirty, I want to be on the DR, and some roads or trails I'll just avoid with the Wee. All depends on your terrain and length of trip I guess.
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