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Old 03-11-2013, 10:30 AM   #74581
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadyRascal View Post
I have both and love the smoothness of the Wee on the road. The Wee is fine on gravel roads but any kind of mountain fire road with tighter corners the Wee gets to be a pig real quick.

Overall I'd say the DR is a better street bike than the Wee is a dirt bike. It's just more of a comfort thing for me with the Wee, I travel longer distances pretty regularly. But whenever it gets dirty, I want to be on the DR, and some roads or trails I'll just avoid with the Wee. All depends on your terrain and length of trip I guess.
Pretty much sums up my take on both bikes. A set up Wee will do most all Fire roads ... even some two track. But for Desert riding, rocks, steep UP or Down ... not so good ... and not close to the DR650. It can be a liability off road do to how poorly the Wee will crash. The DR650, as most know, is pretty crash proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Rocket View Post
Any of you people have a Wee Strom along with the DR650 willing to send me a PM about your observations as to the dirt ability of the Wee and the road abilty of the DR and how much of an overlap there is. I have some friends with WeeStroms at are tyring to talk me into adding one. I'd love to have more bikes, but is there enough difference to be worth it.

I thank you in advance for you thoughts. No need to clog up this thread with this talk, unless you feel it adds to the value of this thread.
I think it's relevant here as we're comparing directly the WEE vs. DR650 ... and of course both are Suzuki's.

Two of six DR650 riders in my riding group ride both DR650 and a Wee Strom. I've ridden several Wee Stroms ... spent days in the saddle both ON and OFF road. The reason the one guy got a DR was when I swapped out with him in Nevada on dirt roads: My DR for his Wee. He was sold. Bought a DR a week later. This is a guy with a NEW 1200 Yam Tenere', a HD and a $27K Gold Wing! Suffice to say ... price is no object.

His Wee had TKC80 tires front and rear. Makes a big difference ... especially the front. Stock street tires on the Wee off road make things a bit scary ... as the front can wash out easily, the TKC's instill a fair bit of confidence ... but the bike does not steer at all like a DR.

The Wee packs up more easily than the DR650. Strong, nothing breaks.
The Wee has potential for more comfort on LD rides.
The Wee, IMHO, is not an ideal Two Up bike ... here the DL1000 is far better. At altitude or riding into a stiff head wind ... the Wee is short on power and torque.
The Wee fuel economy can plummet riding above 80 mph or into a wind. Down into the high 30's.
The Wee needs suspension up grades similar to the DR650. Massive help.
The Wee is a good back road bike but can't match the DR650 on rougher, twistier, debris covered or wet roads. The DR rules on the super tight, technical roads ... but the Wee is not far off the pace at all.

Cross country the Wee is less tiring doing 400 mile days than the DR650.
But a well set up DR650 will really surprise most NON believers. With a good seat, shield, proper drive line set up with new Cush Rubbers, fresh sprockets and chain, the DR is very ride-able for a single. But a single it is ...

If long distance Street rides/Two Up are in the Cards ... I'd rather have the DL1000. Good used ones are as cheap or cheaper than the Wee Strom.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:31 AM   #74582
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so from oil to tires...

Okay, looking to run either a Bridgestone M22 or a Dunlop D606, any one shine more than the other? Is the Bridgestone M22 DOT approved?

Sorry....to bring up the question.....need a good dirt tire.

Thanks!
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:34 AM   #74583
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A question for Derek (Motolab)

Is it your opinion that a non US needle can be dialed in to work better than the DJ needle when the airbox has been opened up?
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:50 AM   #74584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug s. View Post
if i correctly understand what derek is saying, it's that, if you shim a stock needle, you change the spring tension, which lowers the slide. if you get an adjustable needle and raise it w/o shimming, the needle is raised, but the spring tension remains the same; therefore you have no lowering of the slide.
Hello Doug,

Your comments are right on the mark, except for one very small detail. I would not use the words "spring tension", simply because the phrase is sometimes used to refer to the rate, and there is no change in rate, but only in preload.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:57 AM   #74585
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DR vs Wee. Grifter outlined it pretty well. I've done fire roads/truck trails on the Wee and like any bike, you can push it to whatever limits you think it will endure. I get nervous about all the plastic if it ever goes down...kinda like the new KLR. That's a lot of money hangin' out there for rocks to eat.

I use the Wee for 2 Up from sea level to about 5000 feet. I've never had a power problem. It's a lot nicer on the superslab as expected. Back roads are a blast and having a fuel injected twin doesn't hurt.

My DR is my go to for most of my riding. If I had to commute on freeway, I'd want the Wee. If you have the ability and like riding your friends, go for it.

Wee vs Vee has been beat up on Stromtroopers forever. If you want the extra power & slightly less reliable, go Vee.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:19 AM   #74586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumlover View Post
So unles the loss of slide height is greater then the amount the needle is raised by the shim, the needle will still be higher in the needle jet and flow more fuel.
For the needle to not be any higher in the emulsion tube for a given intersection of throttle position and rpm, the loss in slide height must simply be equal to the thickness of the shim (not greater).
Quote:
Also the shimmed needle will always be higher in the needle jet for any given slide height.
Correct!
Quote:
Motolabs explanation doesn't seem to think that is significant and makes it sound (to me) like the needle and slide are working independently.
It is only significant if the loss in slide height is less than the thickness of the shim.
Quote:
I know that wasn't his intent, but that's how it came across.
My intent was to at least make clear what separate and distinct factors are at work, and how they relate to one another.
Quote:
Anyway I was simply trying to point out that I don't think the loss of slide height is greater then the gain at the shimmed needle.
It is not likely to be greater, but could be equal.
Quote:
And even if it is the flow through the needle jet will still be higher for the new slide height when compared to the same slide height for an unshimmed needle.
Again, only if the loss in slide height is less than the shim height. If the loss in slide height equals the shim thickness, then any richening of the mixture comes from a loss in slide height alone. If the loss in slide height is less than the thickness of the shim, then the change in mixture will come from an amalgam of loss in slide height and increased needle height.

One important factor to consider is that when the slide is lower for a given intersection of throttle position and rpm, the slide may well now cause greater intake restriction, and an attendant loss in HP.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:22 AM   #74587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Do you own a DR650? Ever ridden one? Worked on one?
The answer to all three questions is no.
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If not I'd love to see you get hold of a DR and spend some time on it, riding and tuning.
I agree.
Quote:
It's a VERY different bike to an KTM 640 ... and I don't think we can assume that Carb settings that work for a 640 will work on the DR650.
I have never assumed that. In fact, quite to the contrary.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:24 AM   #74588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maynard911 View Post
Is it your opinion that a non US needle can be dialed in to work better than the DJ needle when the airbox has been opened up?
Yes. I have stated that opinion here many times.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:43 AM   #74589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
One important factor to consider is that when the slide is lower for a given intersection of throttle position and rpm, the slide may well now cause greater intake restriction, and an attendant loss in HP.

Regards,

Derek

Nobody panic, I am not going to comment or offer a counterpoint.

Thank you for input and explanations Derek.

Thanks for your kind words AdvGrifter!

Now back to other topics
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:46 AM   #74590
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I'm sure this has been asked and answered here before, but since the air box mod has been brought up and I'm deciding whether to do the air box mod or not, what are the pros and cons to doing so and has anyone wished they hadn't done the mod afterwards?

Jeff

'09 DR650SE
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:40 PM   #74591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
Yes. I have stated that opinion here many times.

Regards,

Derek
Derek,

-thanks for the responses to my post. Sound like your opinion is there is no standard place to start with to improve the BST carb (except you seem to to solid on using an adjustable needle and being able to adjust the pilot jet screw). Every bike is different and you must test. I get that. It's just other tuners say do x, y & z and your bike will run better so that's why I asked.

-I PM you before (thnx for the response) but thought I should do this again in the open forum.
I have 0 to 1/8 off-idle bog that i'm dealing with (some say just deal with it).
The rest of the operation is awesome & I ride from sea level to over 14K.
Mods are: 2 washers on needle, 2nd hole drilled in the slide, pilot screw at 1 turn, snorkel pulled, Iridium plugs, aftermarket air filter.

-What is your opinion (again if I missed it) using the KTM adjustable needle vrs the non-US adjustable needle? I've heard they are ever so slightly different (in the tapper shape) with the KTM needle being richer.

I understand the KTM needle is longer (because an extra washer is used on that BST to help with engine vibration wear) and you must compensate for that when positioning to match the DR needle position. With that being done so both needle sit in the same position which is prefered? Non-US DR needle or KTM? The KTM needle is easy to order. I was planning on buying one. No idea about the non-US needle?

-what is your opinion on drilling a 2nd hole in the slide, like is found on the KTM BST?
how is that affecting operation? & in what relationship to the spring tension?

-I have a stock pipe on for now but will put back on a GSXR muffler when I can get to it in a few months.
What will happen to my setup? I know i need to test, but will this pipe require new jets or just needle clip adjustment and maybe some pilot screw fine tuning? Anyone else?



thanks for the insight!, Bill
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:43 PM   #74592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoPaRider View Post
I'm sure this has been asked and answered here before, but since the air box mod has been brought up and I'm deciding whether to do the air box mod or not, what are the pros and cons to doing so and has anyone wished they hadn't done the mod afterwards?

Jeff

'09 DR650SE

One thing I noticed after opening the top of the airbox is a sgnificant increase in intake noise. Even with earplugs you can really hear it. Just something to note.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:19 PM   #74593
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good to know.

i would not be surprised if the mfg. go that way over time like street tires.
i think the new anakee 3s are dual compound but that would be sweet to have a more aggressive dual compound tire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
I use a grooving iron to cut the center bar out...and the K761s still run over 6K miles for me...2up, and I don't run them bald. I could probably spoon them back on for another 1K or so without issue. They aren't the best wet-weather or dirt tire in un-cut form, but the grooving iron can make them competent enough to get around in some nasty conditions. They made a pretty good mullet rear for weekday commuting/weekend dirtbiking.

Has anybody heard of any dual-compound dualsport tires? A 10K-mile Trackmaster II would be sweet!

I'm pretty happy with the K270 rear so far. It runs dirt, gravel, sand, light mud, and pavement without issue. If it lasts at least as long as the K761, I'll be happy with it. I can see how the K270 front could feel squirmy when new and/or leaned over though, so I'm sticking with the cheap and grippy Shinko 244 front, with it's supported sidelugs, for street.

Surprisingly, my AMS Sand Snake front knobby still corners well in the sand and mud. Going down the slab, the center knobs take most of the wear, and they seem to be able to handle it pretty darn well. For $22, I've more than gotten my money's worth out of this tire. I just don't try to corner it like a sportbike tire.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:34 PM   #74594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug s. View Post
if i correctly understand what derek is saying, it's that, if you shim a stock needle, you change the spring tension, which lowers the slide. if you get an adjustable needle and raise it w/o shimming, the needle is raised, but the spring tension remains the same; therefore you have no lowering of the slide.

of course, i could also be completely off the mark here!

doug s.
yes that is a simple and easy way to explain what he has been saying.

the argument here is what affect does shimming really have on fuel supply operation. does the added fuel with a raised needle (more fuel) out weight the increased spring preload (less fuel) as people have reported so.

yes the adjustable needle is the precise and technically correct way to fine tune the carb as how Derek like to tune vrs what Rumlover is arguing. Is the spring preload increase is so minimal with washers that adding extra fuel with a raised needle is noticeable or is using washers a band-aid approach to proper needle tuning?
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:39 PM   #74595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mambo Dave View Post
You may be on to what he's saying.

But then it would hit the wall of what the suspension guys say about springs - that their rate and tension don't change by pre-load, which is what a shim would do, unless they were a progressive-rate spring and it took up some lower-rate squish of the spring.

Not that I care that much one way or the other - my DR650 with ProCycle's needle and kit seems to run just fine. When push comes to shove, and when the needle wears the slide, I'll buy one of the better carb options out there.
and that may be true too & if so then a washer added only affects the needle height not the action of the slide.

Derek is a carb tuning purist who wants to adjust 1 variable at a time.
His argument is that a shim added changes 2 variables.
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