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Old 03-19-2013, 09:57 AM   #74956
thetable
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Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
Running lean isn't going to causing pinging.
Sure it will. Lean condition will cause the engine to run hot, thus greatly increasing the likelyhood of preignition which will cause knocking or pinging.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:09 AM   #74957
Rob.G
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Originally Posted by thetable View Post
Sure it will. Lean condition will cause the engine to run hot, thus greatly increasing the likelyhood of preignition which will cause knocking or pinging.
Okay I'll buy that, BUT, by that time, you should have been feeling the surge.

Rob
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:20 AM   #74958
Skidmarkart
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Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
Who cares about chicken strips; it is a dual sport.
Yeah - I'm nearly 40 have two kids, and ride a big yellow dirt bike to work everyday. Not really worried about cool anymore
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:22 AM   #74959
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
Running lean isn't going to cause pinging.
Incorrect. If the mixture, timing, octane, compression (static and dynamic) and exhaust breathing are such that the engine is just shy of pinging, a leaner mixture will cause it to ping.
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That's a result of timing advance and octane.
Plus compression (static and dynamic), exhaust breathing and mixture.
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Rather, running lean will give you a lean "surge" and running rich will cause the engine to bog.
Running lean can definitely produce surging, but it can also produce hesitations and, depending of severity, bogging. Running rich will produce no discernible symptoms except a loss in horsepower unless the richness is very severe, in which case it can produce hesitations, misfires, surging, and perhaps bogs.
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FWIW, I picked up a used Wideband O2 sensor on eBay a few years ago. I welded a bung into the head pipes of my bikes and use that for verifying jetting.
I don't consider O2 sensors to be very useful. Here's a brief overview:

1) There is no direct relationship between O2 content and AFR.
2) Even when the mixture cannot be improved, O2 content can and does vary from "ideal".
3) The O2 content can be "perfect" while the mixture is way off.
4) There are may factors that affect O2 content, such as bore size, exhaust valve sealing, ignition timing, and misfires.
5) There is no single "perfect" O2-derived AFR that is applicable to all engines and all combinations of MAP (or TP) and rpm.
6) An O2 sensor's response time is not zero, meaning that there will be a delay between when an O2 content is produced and when it will be read/displayed.
7) An O2 sensor's response time is not likely to be consistent, meaning that the above mentioned delay will vary (i.e. a simple offset will not work).
8) Changes in pressure affect O2 sensor accuracy (pressures inside exhaust systems fluctuate wildly).
9) Changes in temperature affect O2 sensor accuracy, and a heater cannot respond quickly enough to keep it constant.
10) Changes in input voltage affect O2 sensor accuracy (the better controllers can usually eliminate this problem).
11) In the end, AFR is irrelevant. What is relevant is HP and or BSFC at a given intersection of MAP (or TP) and rpm.
12) CO% is the strongest indicator of whether or not the mixture strength is such that the engine will produce best HP or BSFC
13) NOx content (as far as gasses go) is the strongest indicator of whether or not the timing is such that the engine will produce best HP or BSFC, and that it is not detonating.
14) O2 is not a tuning gas. O2 is a diagnostic gas. As such, it tells us about problems such as leaky exhaust valves, weak ignition, misfires & stagger issues after having tuned fuel via CO (with the final arbiter being HP or BSFC) and ignition advance via NOX (with the final arbiter being HP or BSFC).

I'm pleased to note that posters at http://drriders.com/topic3733.html have exhibited awareness of at least some of the above-mentioned.
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It works great!
I suppose this depends on the definition of the word "great".

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:26 AM   #74960
motolab
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Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
Okay I'll buy that, BUT, by that time, you should have been feeling the surge.
Not necessarily. Combustion process temps can go up drastically (as evidenced by NOX content in the exhaust gasses) by dropping the CO% by a fraction of a percent while within the optimal 3-5% CO range. There may not be surging until 2% CO or below.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:28 AM   #74961
victor441
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Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
I have been running 130 tires for over 3 years. Never been a problem. That chart gives "possible fitment" and "recommended" rim sizes. It is not the last word in tire to rim. Does the profile change...yep. Do I care...nope. Handles great. Who cares about chicken strips; it is a dual sport.
It is not that simple...130/90 is generally OK on a 2.5 rim while 130/70 is not and as I said the tire makers data should be checked for a definite answer on fitment. The OP said he was switching to road tires....many (including me) run road tires on their DR's and ride them fast on twisty roads so running a suitable tire that fits right DOES matter for safety and performance.....

victor441 screwed with this post 03-19-2013 at 10:35 AM
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:39 AM   #74962
motolab
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Originally Posted by procycle View Post
If that's what is happening with your bike you can flip the plastic washer over and be back to the original needle height.
I would only recommend doing that if the spacer is still tight on the needle. If not, it will allow the needle to spin, which causes wear where it passes through the slide. See http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=306.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:16 AM   #74963
Mongle
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Originally Posted by victor441 View Post
It is not that simple...130/90 is generally OK on a 2.5 rim while 130/70 is not and as I said the tire makers data should be checked for a definite answer on fitment. The OP said he was switching to road tires....many (including me) run road tires on their DR's and ride them fast on twisty roads so running a suitable tire that fits right DOES matter for safety and performance.....
Guess I should have specified: I run a Pirelli Scorpion 130/80 right now. NO problems. Chart says don't do it (matter of fact chart says don't run ANY 130 tire on 2.5 rim-which is why I didn't specify the 80). I did it..still here to talk about it. And I ride the shit out of mine on the paved roads in NC.

If it worries you I say don't do it. You will never have the confidence of the tire if you trust the chart.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:24 AM   #74964
Skidmarkart
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Good news... the shop was super nice about the tire thing, and said come on back and switch it out. I'll definitely be giving these guys a good review (and probably a few bucks to help them out on the labor/tire), and my return business.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:24 AM   #74965
Mongle
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Anyone need valve stem seals?

I order from a manufacturer and had to order 25. I needed some and got some for another inmate. I will have about 3 sets left over. I don't know the exact price yet but usually it is about 25% of Ronayers cost.

I should have them in end of the week/beginning of next. Just shoot me a PM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:28 AM   #74966
victor441
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Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
Guess I should have specified: I run a Pirelli Scorpion 130/80 right now. NO problems. Chart says don't do it (matter of fact chart says don't run ANY 130 tire on 2.5 rim-which is why I didn't specify the 80). I did it..still here to talk about it. And I ride the shit out of mine on the paved roads in NC.

If it worries you I say don't do it. You will never have the confidence of the tire if you trust the chart.
nope, that is not what it says, look again...per that chart 130/90 is OK on a 2.5 rim, and a 130/80 is OK on a 2.75 which is close....
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:30 AM   #74967
Mongle
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Originally Posted by victor441 View Post
nope, that is not what it says, look again...per that chart 130/90 is OK on a 2.5 rim, and a 130/80 is OK on a 2.75 which is close....

Your right, sorry. I looked at it wrong.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:36 AM   #74968
procycle
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Originally Posted by motolab View Post
I would only recommend doing that if the spacer is still tight on the needle. If not, it will allow the needle to spin, which causes wear where it passes through the slide.
The needle and spacer will spin together. The spinning wears the spacer. A worn spacer will have a step worn in it all around the bottom face. I've seen quite a few of these. You would think the slide spring would prevent the spacer from spinning but it does not.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:49 AM   #74969
motolab
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Originally Posted by procycle View Post
The needle and spacer will spin together. The spinning wears the spacer. A worn spacer will have a step worn in it all around the bottom face. I've seen quite a few of these. You would think the slide spring would prevent the spacer from spinning but it does not.
The needle and spacer can spin together, but I doesn't always work that way. Sometimes the spacer does not spin, and instead of wearing all the way round, the white spacer gets a notch in it in one place. In any case, the likelihood of the needle spinning is increased when the white spacer does not fit it tightly.

Regards,

Derek

motolab screwed with this post 03-19-2013 at 01:21 PM
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:27 PM   #74970
victor441
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Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Good news... the shop was super nice about the tire thing, and said come on back and switch it out. I'll definitely be giving these guys a good review (and probably a few bucks to help them out on the labor/tire), and my return business.

Great to hear they are fixing their mistake and making things right at no charge to you. FWIW here is a picture of a specific fitment chart that shows how width and profile both matter vs. rim size for correct fitment (am using AM26's on my own DR and like them but have no connection to Avon, etc...)

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