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Old 11-27-2012, 06:48 AM   #26071
Aurelius
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Depends on speed and wind. Fairly close to fairly far away. 6-8-ish inches is fairly normal for road drafting.
Oooh, that's scary close. Don't think I'll try that, then. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

Quote:
Mtn biking? I wouldn't recommend it. Too many nasties waiting to grab yer wheels when you can't see what's going on cause you're so close to the guy in front of you.

M
No, I'm talking road bike. On dirt trails, I leave LOTS of room between me and other riders. I've seen what happens when you don't.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:48 AM   #26072
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Dood!

No?!



M
Dood, I'm a triathlete. I absolutely train for a higher average speed.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:55 AM   #26073
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Constantly chasing higher and higher average speeds is a bad way to train.
M
Is it? I always try to beat at least one PR when I'm out on a ride. It's of the utmost importance for me to beat the Strava records of other riders I know.
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Dizave opined: Why do you care where the premises come from? They are above reproach. For all intents and purposes, you can just make up all your premises, since they can't be proven anyway. That's why we need premises.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:41 AM   #26074
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post

Constantly chasing higher and higher average speeds is a bad way to train. ...unless you're a triathlete or TT rider.

M
Why?

Do explain please.

January 2013 Avg Speed - N km/h
June 2013 Avg Speed n+x km/h = bad??

I was under the impression that most training plans will net you a higher average speed (over the same course/conditions) in addition to other benefits. Gains will decrease as you ramp up like in most other things.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:52 AM   #26075
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Originally Posted by Chisenhallw View Post
Dood, I'm a triathlete. I absolutely train for a higher average speed.
aaah phew! Thank doG!

...except that triathlete part. Here I was thinking you was kewl.



AFA chasing average speeds: There's a few reasons. First and biggest one is that if you're always chasing higher averages, you're always riding what amounts to one speed. If you're a TTist or triathlete, this is fine 'cause riding at threshold is where its at.

As a cyclist, especially one that rides with others, you need to be able to surge, soft-pedal, attack, etc. that only riding one speed can't get you. Add to that the need to let your muscles recover and rebuild and you get stagnation and burnout.

The second reason is avg speed is pretty well meaningless as a measurement device. There's headwinds, tailwinds, hills (up and down), etc. that all make 'average' anything worthless.

...and the third is it leads to bad behavior on the bike. Running stop signs, etc. all in the name of 'higher average speeds.' Like the guy yelling 'strava!' and expecting you to move 'cause he's trying to get a KOM...

You wanna get faster? Go get Friel's book and follow his plan. That includes intervals and sprints. ...and ride with faster guys. Find a group ride that pushes you and hang on as long as you can.

Learning to surf the pack is yet another skill that a cyclist needs to learn. Actually, there's an entire sub-set of skills that aren't being taught any more. Like how to rotate the opposite direction when the wind changes direction. How to shit-hook. How to ride a paceline effectively and correctly. Echelons etc etc etc

M
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:54 AM   #26076
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Why would Street riding in a group of similar quality riders be a better training workout than a solo ride?

I can certainly see how the social aspect may be motivational and how the millage may increase but I find that I get more out of solo rides with simply improving on past performance as my goal.

Humm...I see that Gummee has somewhat answered my question with the above post so never mind unless there's more to add.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:57 AM   #26077
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Why would riding in a group of similar quality riders be a better training workout than a solo ride?
Cause (done right) you can go farther faster with a group than you can solo. Carrots in front of you, etc.

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I can certainly see how the social aspect may be motivational and how the millage may increase but I find that I get more out of solo rides with simply improving on past performance as my goal.
Without something to compare to, why's it matter? Sure you can be fast, but why? Why are you trying to be fast?

...and what are you trying to measure? Max power? TT times? Max speed in a sprint? Max uphill speed?

Which loops us back to 'why?' You tryin to beat someone up the hill? Hang with the fast guys? Finish the rando in X hours?

M
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:01 AM   #26078
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Like the guy yelling 'strava!' and expecting you to move 'cause he's trying to get a KOM...

M
What an excellent suggestion! I'll be sure to do that the next time I'm out riding.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:03 AM   #26079
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This is your brain on exercise

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:04 AM   #26080
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Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
What an excellent suggestion! I'll be sure to do that the next time I'm out riding.
Knock yourself out.

...but if you wanna race, race.

M
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:24 AM   #26081
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Knock yourself out.

...but if you wanna race, race.

M
I am racing, dude. Made it to #10 on the Strava leader board!

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:58 AM   #26082
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
Cause (done right) you can go farther faster with a group than you can solo. Carrots in front of you, etc.

Without something to compare to, why's it matter? Sure you can be fast, but why? Why are you trying to be fast?

...and what are you trying to measure? Max power? TT times? Max speed in a sprint? Max uphill speed?

Which loops us back to 'why?' You tryin to beat someone up the hill? Hang with the fast guys? Finish the rando in X hours?

M

I certainly agree that you can go further faster with a group but I also see that as a product of the shared drag/resistance help that a group offers.

However, going further and faster isn't my actual goal.

My goal is to improve my performance over time.
Perhaps that's why I ride a cross bike and I don't mind the resistance a solo ride offers.

My point is simply that there are many ways to ride and progress and that group rides aren't the only way.
I also enjoy the knowledge that I can just go when I'm ready and that I don't have to coordinate with anyone to get a street ride in.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:00 AM   #26083
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My point is simply that there are many ways to ride and progress and that group rides aren't the only way.
I agree. In fact, the guys that ONLY do the group rides aren't getting all they could either.

You'll have to define 'improve my performance over time.' I'm

M
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:25 AM   #26084
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
I agree. In fact, the guys that ONLY do the group rides aren't getting all they could either.

You'll have to define 'improve my performance over time.' I'm

M
I'll take a stab at it. I think the reason that you're getting resistance is because you asserted -

Quote:
Constantly chasing higher and higher average speeds is a bad way to train
When perhaps a better way to say it would be 'Constantly chasing higher & higher average speeds isn't the best way to train for the type of racing I do'. Chasing averages is perfectly fine - it's just not the best for a given application. I get good results from using averages - I have a large amount of data over an 18 mile course that I have worked for almost a year now. Given enough sampling data, I can eliminate variables such as stoplights*, headwinds, etc, and narrow down the variables to things I can control. Works for me.

For the races I run and the level I'm at, this gives me results that don't require thousands of dollars in equipment or require me to coordinate with someone else's schedule.

Likewise, for a given training environment, Strava is perfectly fine.

Every time we have this fight, it's because one group touts its racing & training methodology over another - when it's comparing apples to oranges. We train to perform in different circumstances. This makes different methods useless for comparison.


* - If Gummee & I ever did ride together, his head would explode in 5 seconds. Because following the 'rules' in Baltimore will, absolutely will, get you killed. Besides - everybody knows tri-dorks have no manners.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:42 AM   #26085
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
I agree. In fact, the guys that ONLY do the group rides aren't getting all they could either.

You'll have to define 'improve my performance over time.' I'm

M
I use GPS tools to tell me my various speeds and times over the various routes I ride.

I try to do better over time with the knowledge that conditions like wind, traffic and slight adjustments in the route can influence the results.

It's not a perfect plan and the place I see the most improvement is on mountain bike rides where I can compare myself to some of the kids I'm often chasing.
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