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Old 02-20-2013, 11:12 AM   #27451
k7
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Originally Posted by vfr700 View Post
You're not a douche, just sharing a bit of life experience. If people don't get it, that doesn't make you a prick, or your opinion offensive. Now if you don't mind I need leave...going to install Di2 on my Roadmaster.
Well, there is a fine line between offering advice and then knowing when to back off. It ain't reached that point yet.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:14 AM   #27452
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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
I dont really get your point... So i am putting decent componentry on a frame i already have... Im not getting bottom of the barrel stuff here, and the frame is from a bike that retailed for about 350 back in the 90s... Its not a stupid cheap bike at all... I just happened apon the frame for free and thought it would be fun to build up for something different...
Go for it. Have fun with it.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:13 PM   #27453
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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
First off yes i do under stand the difference of fork to crown and fork rake... Axle to crown is quite simply the distance from the axle to the crown, measured in a straight line (i.e. Not following the fork) measured from the axle to the crown... Fork rake is the angle forward from the steer tube to where the axle mounts...
close enough; now, do you understand how Trail is affected when you change wheel diameter?

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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
also, did you know that the forks arent all that much different going from a solid 26" to a 700c? I have 700c wheels on the 26" fork and the brakes (road brakes for 700c) reach the rim perfectly)
sorta' depends on what you call "[not] all that much different"; 622-559/2=31.5mm.
keep in mind that we're talking about head tube angles, where differences in fractions of a degree make difference in handling that are noticeable.
fork length and headset heights are all going to (literally) add up to make a difference in this. if you've already verified that all the parts you're swapping add up correctly, great. (judging by where the brakes line up on the rim doesn't tell you much; there's often a good deal of room for adjustment.)

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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
as for the reason it sucked as what it was sold for is because they sold it as an mtb with a road geo.... Like i said the whole geo is almost identical to my bros Dawes... Which is a 700x23c bike from the factory... The head tube angle is identical to his dawes, and as it sits right now is the exact same hieght at the crown as his... Like i said its a road frame that was sold as an mtb...
it's pretty hard to see the differences of a fraction of a degree in head tube angle by eye. and comparing the forks as you described doesn't take into account possible differences in tire height, so they'd have to have been standing on the same tires at the same pressure, too.

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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
I can understand your viewpoint on the whole thing (as well as everyone elses, its kinda hard to show my research without extensive pictures, and lengthy descriptions to show everything i have already looked into, so it would raise doubts with yall, as for the frame integrity, before i even started in the build i gave it a good examination, and, as someone who needs to know how to weld for my job, i see no issues with this frame, i didnt see any flaws or anything that would indicate a weak point. If i had seen any of that i wouldnt have even taken the frame in the first place...
i've seen some startling things after the paint came off a frame that weren't visible beforehand,... and if you're into welding, you might be able to imagine some of the kinds of voids you find when you start cutting bikes apart. (the worst i've seen were all Cannondales.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
On a side note, with a crap 150mm crank, and circa 1970s kit (shifters and derailleurs) i rode this frame over 1500mi, so i already have full faith in the frame as a road frame, and am cofortable with the basic geo of it as a road frame...

Like i said before it may not be ideal, but i like doing stuff the hard way sometimes...LOL its much more gratifying in the end....

In theory i could have gone on ebay and bought a new entry level schwinn for the price of my shifters and wheels... But then i would still have a lousy dept store quality frame, and the bottom of the barrel components, with crap rims.... I think i would be much better offwith buildi g up what i have, and maybe down the road upgrade the frame than start with all entry level crap... Pretty much all the stuff going on can be transferred over to a modern frameset, so its not like i am sinking an assload of money into something that i wont be able to use on anything else...
i would have liked to have seen you put your money and talents to work on a real bike that you bought at a discount off of Craigslist,...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
the frame is from a bike that retailed for about 350 back in the 90s... Its not a stupid cheap bike at all...
um, yeah, OK,...

good luck!
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:13 PM   #27454
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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
As for the cranks those are gone...BB conversion came in the mail, waiting on my sunlite cranks to show up... As for the carbon vs chromo fork? Why NOT? LOL I had an old scwinn worlds chro-mo, with the chro-mo fork...front tire moved alot more than i felt comfortable with.... And besides i got the fork for under $50 shipped....




well, so you have a frame with 1" threaded headset, and a 1" threadless fork?

Whale, Aisle Bee Daiman. they still make 1" threadless headsets. http://www.aheadset.com/bicycle-headsets?p=TR.1

whats missing here is the size of the head tube this fits into, one can only pray its the same as what you have. I *think* that was pretty much standardized prior to the current 1-1/8" stuff.

now you need to remove the headset from the frame (remove bars, stem, remove old forks, use long brass drift and hammer to tap out the headset cups from behind). take the frame to LBS to have the head tube reamed and faced (the tool to do this properly far exceeds the cost of this whole project).

install threadless headset cups in freshly reamed and faced frame (I've been known to use a wood block and rubber mallet, its properly done with a press, others have used threaded rod and big washers, whats important is that both the cups go in STRAIGHT and fully seat). install the crown race on the fork. assemble the headset stack with the fork.

now you get to find a stem that fits a 1" threadless system, should be fun since /everything/ is 1-1/8" nowdays.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:14 PM   #27455
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Originally Posted by k7 View Post
Well, there is a fine line between offering advice and then knowing when to back off. It ain't reached that point yet.
At this point, he's gonna do it whether any of us think its smart or not.

I can't wait till he installs the fork...

@Pierce: they make shims for that 1" -> 1 1/8" thing. That's not a problem Any LBS that's been around a while should have a few laying around.

M
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:09 PM   #27456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zouch View Post
close enough; now, do you understand how Trail is affected when you change wheel diameter?



sorta' depends on what you call "[not] all that much different"; 622-559/2=31.5mm.
keep in mind that we're talking about head tube angles, where differences in fractions of a degree make difference in handling that are noticeable.
fork length and headset heights are all going to (literally) add up to make a difference in this. if you've already verified that all the parts you're swapping add up correctly, great. (judging by where the brakes line up on the rim doesn't tell you much; there's often a good deal of room for adjustment.)



it's pretty hard to see the differences of a fraction of a degree in head tube angle by eye. and comparing the forks as you described doesn't take into account possible differences in tire height, so they'd have to have been standing on the same tires at the same pressure, too.



i've seen some startling things after the paint came off a frame that weren't visible beforehand,... and if you're into welding, you might be able to imagine some of the kinds of voids you find when you start cutting bikes apart. (the worst i've seen were all Cannondales.)



i would have liked to have seen you put your money and talents to work on a real bike that you bought at a discount off of Craigslist,...



um, yeah, OK,...

good luck!
If you really want to get technical the overall diameter of the 700c wheel and tire combo=29.37", and the 26x1.95 that originally came on the bike measures 29.9" diameter, so effectively i made the front end tighter and not slack, due to the smaller wheel diameter, unlike you were originally thinking...like i said before, its not worth my time to type out all my research on the geo.... I have been researching this since last july intensly, and over a year and a half casually, because the last road frame i had was too big for me (got it second hand and my junk was uncomfortably tight on the top tube straddling it) so i started swapping stuff over to this frame, and its been riding beautifully....LOL

As for your first question about trail...yep... Basically the larger the trail, the more straight line stability you have at the sacrifice of cornering.... Head tube angle plays a large factor in that....and with my 700c tires, i have decreased the trail by lowering the axle 3/8", thus making the head tube slightly more vertical...taking around a half to 3/4 degree off the headtube angle...

As for the voids in the welds, usually theres some telltale of a void, somtimes theres not, risk i am taking....like i said...i already have over a thousand miles on the frame, if there was a bad weld, riding 1000 miles on chicago roads would have brought it to light...

As for the real bike off craigslist comment.....i prefer ebay....and built this up last fall after i retired my 3900 hardtail...LOL that had 15k miles....



Heres my hard tail that i just mentioned...



So yeah i can build a nice bike too... This ones a fun build...that just happens to work for me...if i were riding the frame offroad? Hell no i wouldnt be building off a dept store frame... For mostly smooth and all paved riding? I dont have any qualms about using it...
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:25 PM   #27457
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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
I have 700c wheels on the 26" fork and the brakes (road brakes for 700c) reach the rim perfectly)
My SS is setup the same way; 26" > 700c. I love that bike!
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:35 PM   #27458
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Originally Posted by pierce View Post




well, so you have a frame with 1" threaded headset, and a 1" threadless fork?

Whale, Aisle Bee Daiman. they still make 1" threadless headsets. http://www.aheadset.com/bicycle-headsets?p=TR.1

whats missing here is the size of the head tube this fits into, one can only pray its the same as what you have. I *think* that was pretty much standardized prior to the current 1-1/8" stuff.

now you need to remove the headset from the frame (remove bars, stem, remove old forks, use long brass drift and hammer to tap out the headset cups from behind). take the frame to LBS to have the head tube reamed and faced (the tool to do this properly far exceeds the cost of this whole project).

install threadless headset cups in freshly reamed and faced frame (I've been known to use a wood block and rubber mallet, its properly done with a press, others have used threaded rod and big washers, whats important is that both the cups go in STRAIGHT and fully seat). install the crown race on the fork. assemble the headset stack with the fork.

now you get to find a stem that fits a 1" threadless system, should be fun since /everything/ is 1-1/8" nowdays.
for the 1" headset yes that was a standard size of 30mm headshell, and still is for some BMX, so finding them isnt that hard... I already have the headset i need, and a stem and adapter sleeve, i know how to install a headset and cup races.... Been doing that as long as i have been riding... (i prefer the threaded rod and washers method) i habe never needed to ream and face a headtube.... Little 600grit to knock any burrs down and its good to go.....that has worked fine for me on the last 4 bikes i built....

Gotta think outside of the box when dealing with me... Otherwise it will cause you headaches....LOL
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:40 PM   #27459
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Originally Posted by ducnut View Post
My SS is setup the same way; 26" > 700c. I love that bike!
Finally....LOL Someone else that understands how to add...LOL mtb tires on a 26" rim are larger diameter than 700c road tires...hell they are even a 1/4" bigger than a 27"x1 1/4" oldschool road tire....
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:20 PM   #27460
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i'll wish you good luck again 'cuz i expect you're going to need it, and in spite of the fact that you came here asking for help it seems there's nothing anyone can help you with that you don't already (think you) know.

(i'm glad it's not my bikes you're working on! it's going to be, uh, interesting.)


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Originally Posted by bogieboy View Post
[assumptions, unrelated conclusions, and other general blather snipped]
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:14 PM   #27461
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Originally Posted by zouch View Post
i'll wish you good luck again 'cuz i expect you're going to need it, and in spite of the fact that you came here asking for help it seems there's nothing anyone can help you with that you don't already (think you) know.

(i'm glad it's not my bikes you're working on! it's going to be, uh, interesting.)


who said "its not what you don't know, but what you know that ain't so, that gets you in trouble!" ?
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:18 AM   #27462
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who said "its not what you don't know, but what you know that ain't so, that gets you in trouble!" ?
Meh. Some of us love to experiment and learn on our own.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:28 AM   #27463
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Originally Posted by ducnut View Post
Meh. Some of us love to experiment and learn on our own.
I think we all get that. I've made stuff work that by all rights shouldn't have. You aren't a mechanic for 20 years if you don't.

One of my favorites was a pair of thumb shifters on a road drop bar as 'barcons' for my around town bike back in college. Ricky's got a lot more than that. He's got creativity coming out his ears!

I get that sometimes there's awesome things that come out of 'hey, let's see what THIS does!' Just look at most of the 'some assembly required' section of this site. ...but if collectively everyone says 'it isn't a good idea' would you keep going or would you stop and think about it some?

Me? Faggetaboutit. I'm going for a 3-4hr ride on my cross bike here in a bit. Good thing its 'warmed up' to the 30s!

M
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:50 AM   #27464
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Me? Faggetaboutit. I'm going for a 3-4hr ride on my cross bike here in a bit. Good thing its 'warmed up' to the 30s!
20deg and windy, here.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:00 AM   #27465
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Originally Posted by Gummee! View Post
I think we all get that. I've made stuff work that by all rights shouldn't have. You aren't a mechanic for 20 years if you don't.

One of my favorites was a pair of thumb shifters on a road drop bar as 'barcons' for my around town bike back in college. Ricky's got a lot more than that. He's got creativity coming out his ears!

I get that sometimes there's awesome things that come out of 'hey, let's see what THIS does!' Just look at most of the 'some assembly required' section of this site. ...but if collectively everyone says 'it isn't a good idea' would you keep going or would you stop and think about it some?

Me? Faggetaboutit. I'm going for a 3-4hr ride on my cross bike here in a bit. Good thing its 'warmed up' to the 30s!

M
First off let me say im not trying to say i onow everything about everything....LOL im only 24.... I just have an adventurous mind that often brings up that "i wonder what would happen if" scenario.....LOL i am also on a rather tight budget, so if i can save the hundred or so a frame would cost, thats a big help to me... If i have to i will get a frame... I would rather have the fun with this one first though, because it was free...

That said i did prove a lot of people wrong with the last "unanimous you cant make it work" project.... Front engine rear wheel drive 5spd gocart.....LOL



Thing does almost 40, powered by a 1979 honda xl75 motor...
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