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Old 07-28-2006, 03:08 PM   #1
BlitzBike OP
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Is there a LC4 Starter diagram (of internals) anywhere?

I Don't see it on the LC4 thread index or KTMtalk. They just show the whole thing without any detail of the internal parts.
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:42 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitzBike
I Don't see it on the LC4 thread index or KTMtalk. They just show the whole thing without any detail of the internal parts.
And unless someone took one apart and photo-documented the whole thing... you never will find much of anything.



KTM considers it a replace rather than a repair item.

C
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Old 07-28-2006, 04:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
And unless someone took one apart and photo-documented the whole thing... you never will find much of anything.



KTM considers it a replace rather than a repair item.

C
Dearest Mister Creeper,

Could you please write a "how-to" on replacing the starter motor's o-ring.

Ever so faithfully yours,

CC
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Old 07-28-2006, 05:19 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ChrisC
Dearest Mister Creeper,

Could you please write a "how-to" on replacing the starter motor's o-ring.

Ever so faithfully yours,

CC
Sure.



There ya' go pookie.
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Old 07-28-2006, 05:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper



KTM considers it a replace rather than a repair item.

C
Tell me about it brother, I believe they run somewhere around $115. It wasn't in stock either (surprise). The good news is that it was very easy to replace. I kept the old one, not sure why, anybody need a door stop?
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Old 07-28-2006, 05:47 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Odysseus
Tell me about it brother, I believe they run somewhere around $115. It wasn't in stock either (surprise). The good news is that it was very easy to replace. I kept the old one, not sure why, anybody need a door stop?
Considering servicing a starter in any other form than a complete overhaul... field coils, armature, brushes, labor... the whole nine yards, is kind of a "temporary fix"... $115 for a shiny new starter is a pretty good deal.

Flip side of the coin... if I was in the official middle of nowhere with a NFG starter, and someone handed me a set of brushes for it and a hacksaw blade to clean out and square up the commutator segments... I'd have the puppy off and apart real quick.
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Old 07-28-2006, 06:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus
Tell me about it brother, I believe they run somewhere around $115. It wasn't in stock either (surprise). The good news is that it was very easy to replace. I kept the old one, not sure why, anybody need a door stop?
$115?? Where can I get one at that price? Its $230.53 at KTMtalk.
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Old 07-28-2006, 06:12 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by BlitzBike
$115?? I could have swore I saw $230 at Ktmtalk.com
1 58440001000 ELECTRIC STARTE $230.53

Looks like Ody got his numbers off a bit... like by half.
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Old 07-28-2006, 06:22 PM   #9
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Seems to me I recall some threads refering to the starter "gear" being the weak link. I see two items that could be construed as a "gear" in the fische.
(ideler and reduction gear)
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Old 07-28-2006, 08:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
1 58440001000 ELECTRIC STARTE $230.53

Looks like Ody got his numbers off a bit... like by half.
It was a month ago, and my memory never was very good, and its getting worse!
I actually looked for the damn receipt from Scuderia West, couldn't find it (where did I put that damn thing? Curse you my rotten memory!)
I don't know why I thought I paid $115, wishful thinking?
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Old 07-28-2006, 09:58 PM   #11
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I think the real issue here is to ask WHY you are interested in the internals of the starter? What's wrong with yours? Terribble clunking, grinding, clacking noise when you try to use it or it just doesn't spin at all? If it's not spinning, are you sure it's not the relay? Absolutely positive the battery is ok?
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCifu
I think the real issue here is to ask WHY you are interested in the internals of the starter? What's wrong with yours? Terribble clunking, grinding, clacking noise when you try to use it or it just doesn't spin at all? If it's not spinning, are you sure it's not the relay? Absolutely positive the battery is ok?

Its been getting more and more sluggish on starts and I have tried two new batteries and it now only gives that clicking sound that sounds like a silenced machine gun. Mechanic says he has a neighbor that rebuilds them but, I find it hard to believe that will be cheaper or better than 230 + shipping and tax to my door.
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Old 07-29-2006, 02:04 PM   #13
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That might be the starter but don't discount some other sources:
  • Failing relay (corroded internal contacts)
  • Bad ground
  • Corroded cables (I've seen cables that looked fine but acid had wicked down the insulation and destroyed them 3" inside)
I'm not saying that it isn't the motor but most motors fail all at once, not a little at a time. Progressive problems suggest failing connections. Make sure before you buy a starter and find out that's not the problem
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Old 07-29-2006, 05:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitzBike
Its been getting more and more sluggish on starts and I have tried two new batteries and it now only gives that clicking sound that sounds like a silenced machine gun. Mechanic says he has a neighbor that rebuilds them but, I find it hard to believe that will be cheaper or better than 230 + shipping and tax to my door.
The machine gun sound you hear is a relay contact disc, not the starter itself.
To paraphrase Greg, who pretty much covered all the places to look, either the relay itself has a faulty magnetic coil, or the contacts are corroded, or the cables leading to it or away from it do not have adequate continuity.

You have two relays in the starter system, items 37 and 42 in the breakout.



To do a "quick and dirty" relay test, you can look at the schematic and refer to it to bypass one or both relays to see which one is at fault. You will want fairly heavy gauge wire to do this when bypassing the main starter relay (37).
You can also, if you have a multimeter, disconnect the contact wires, energize the relay and see what you have for continuity thru the closed "power transfer" contacts.
Most relays will have a continuity across the contacts of one ohm or less... anything more and you probably have a faulty relay.



I'm betting that your problem is nothing more than a connection with less than stellar continuity... like a ground strap, or positive cable from the battery to the main starter relay.

C
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Old 07-29-2006, 06:07 PM   #15
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Here's another sneaky way to check the cabling and relay:

Take your voltmeter (you have one, right?) and connect the negative lead to your + terminal on the battery. Take the positive (red) and connect it to the lug on the outside of the starter. Now try to start the bike and watch the voltmeter.

In a perfect world, the voltmeter would show zero volts but this world isn't perfect. I'd say 1-1.5 Volts while you're trying to crank the engine would be the limit.

Remember: you're not measuring system voltage in this case, you're measuring how much it's dropping from the terminal on your battery through all the wiring and starter relay, down to the starter. If it's losing more than 1.5 volts, I'd say you have cabling or relay issues. The good news is it probably won't be marginal: either you'll be showing a huge drop or you won't.

Do the same with the negative side: connect to the negative lead on the battery and the other voltmeter lead to bare metal on the starter case. That one should be nearly zero--MAYBE 0.5V when cranking but that would make me suspicious.
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