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Old 09-05-2006, 07:51 PM   #16
Effervescent
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Great stuff.

Thanks a lot for the number. I called them today and they didn't seem to know their asses from their elbows. Said they would call me back. They didn't.

I called again and homeboy says they have no vests. Tells me that the vests all got stopped in Customs due to recent 9/11 terrorism stuff (they DO look like bulletproof vests, I suppose). They will get them Thursday and I should have mine in a week.

What annoying is that they gladly took my dough 15 days ago, then ignored two emails, and I needed to call twice today to get a straight answer. Ugh.

-Eff
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:04 PM   #17
Mike in Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Effervescent
Great stuff.

Thanks a lot for the number. I called them today and they didn't seem to know their asses from their elbows. Said they would call me back. They didn't.

I called again and homeboy says they have no vests. Tells me that the vests all got stopped in Customs due to recent 9/11 terrorism stuff (they DO look like bulletproof vests, I suppose). They will get them Thursday and I should have mine in a week.

What annoying is that they gladly took my dough 15 days ago, then ignored two emails, and I needed to call twice today to get a straight answer. Ugh.

-Eff
Call them back, tell them that they violated every credit card agreement any merchant signs when selling something they do not have. I would also expect they dont want to get a charge back which the credit card company will gladly do due to their screw up. While they might have a great product, they cant be the only game in town.

Mike
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:33 PM   #18
ldbandit76 OP
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Sorry to hear about the troubles there, Eff. Good luck.

Meanwhile, I have pictures. This is the back/inside of my right arm, taken on Monday night:



I fell, hard, on a rock field on Thursday. I believe most of the impact occured around my right shoulder blade, but that was covered by the vest. My arm wasn't, and got this nice looking bruise and scrape. The scrape is about 3 inches long.

But the portions of my back which seemed to bear the brunt of the fall are unmarked. There's nothing there. So it seems this vest will prevent nasty bruises and mild abrasions (through a jacket) at the very least. My arm and my back were within inches of each other when I fell (hands by waist) and they fell on basically the same surface, so I'd call this a pretty good experiment.

Both dad and I were shocked that I was relatively unscathed after the fall. While I base my faith in the Esprit's protective value on the standards it passes, this is a good indicator that it seems to work.

I describe the fall in detail in my trip report here:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=15

Dave

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Old 09-06-2006, 03:43 PM   #19
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Ouch. :puke


What did you do for shoulders? Stock jacket pads? (not that the area bruised is really covered by any configuration I've ever seen ) If you left the shoulder pads in, what was that interface like? Did it hang up at all?
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Old 09-06-2006, 04:05 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PackMule
What did you do for shoulders? Stock jacket pads? (not that the area bruised is really covered by any configuration I've ever seen ) If you left the shoulder pads in, what was that interface like? Did it hang up at all?
Yep, stock pads in shoulders and elbows (they're CE, about as good as I could expect). No hangups on the vest "straps" that I noticed at all. The jacket just rides over the vest. Note that shoulder pads seem to hang on the outside of the shoulders (or should, as far as I'm concerned) while the vest is on top.

And no, I have no idea what I could have done to protect this part of my arm. It's almost my armpit, the very top portion of my tricep. Any pads there would be rather inconvenient. And stinky.

But my arm can swing away in a fall (less inertia), while a landing like this on a shoulder blade would be a very substantial impact. I'm glad I had that thing on.

Dave
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Old 09-13-2006, 10:26 PM   #21
Effervescent
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Dave,

I decided to be patience. It arrived today which is when the guy predicted it would. Others may wanna try another vendor. Though shipping was free here.

This thing is amazing. It makes all my other protective padding gear seem like a joke.

What amazes me is that this thing is SO EFFIN' solid but doesn't restrict mobility. It really seems like they designed it to protect your core and not limit flexiblity. With it on I feel like a solider or swat team member. With a jacket over it, I look like an NFL player/turtle lol

I only do street riding. In a serious crash, this baby would really help protect spine/ribs/collarbones/solar plexus/internals. My bohn shirt and jacket's armor is in charge of elbows and shoulders. I have removed my jacket's back protector as I was looking too much like a turtle and it was a joke compared to this vest anyway.

This thing definately can't be stored in saddlebags or in a Givi. Although, I'll experiment with it.

For $135 shipped, it's truly incredible protection for your entire torso. Seriously, everything else is a joke. This thing's unreal!

Thanks a million!

-Eff
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:18 AM   #22
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Right on, these vests are looking very proimising for all-around use without a huge ergonomic penalty. I noticed that Johnson Leathers, the T-Pro armor distributors are also selling one now, but are only recomending it for the intended use of horse back riding(for law enforcement). It's a litle different than the Esprit, not a zip front. I've noticed a few are zip front and few are not, would guess that the zip front is more convenient, but maybe the solid front pieces might more comfortable across the chest? The Esprit is least expensive model I've found anywhere. I also noticed that much the same as the mc armor industry, a number of less protective options are also more expensive, some not even rated to the EN13158 or BETA 2000 minimum level rerquirements and costing over $200, and made by the same companies to boot. To reiterate about the appropriate levels though if anyone finds another model out there for horse riding, its the BETA 2000 LEVEL 3 approved pieces or CE EN13158 LEVEL 3, the BETA approved pieces are batch tested in addition for quality control. Lesser horse vest standards are inferior to the CE EN1621-2 Level 2 standard for mc back protectors, though they still may provide more coverage for the chest, back, abdomen, and clavicle areas than mc-specific jerseys or armor pieces.

http://www.johnsonleather.com/Horse%20Rider's%20Protector.htm

Anyhow, on a similar note, Johnsons is also advertizing a new T-pro product, which they have been working on for a number of months now. I emailed Johnson's about that new piece a while back, in regard to it's protective capabilities. They forwarded me to Richard Andrews at T-pro(Davies O'Dell), who said that they orignally developed that piece with kart racing in mind, and that they had it performing down to force levels of 16kN@50J. I went over some of the issues with him, and they consulted with expert Paul Varnsverry after my inquiries about the appropriate force performance levels and ergonomic issues. It's been a few weeks since my last correspondence with Varnsverry, but it sounded like they were taking the isues very seriously and looking to improve it for mc riding use. I noticed they've continued to back-up the production dates for that piece, so I'm hopeful that they are still trying to provide a better performing piece that may bridge the gap between the horse vests and mc riding duty concerns.

Meanwhile it's awesome to see an understanding of these issues and a good solution being available, purchased, and put to the test.

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Old 09-14-2006, 08:20 AM   #23
ldbandit76 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Effervescent
What amazes me is that this thing is SO EFFIN' solid but doesn't restrict mobility. It really seems like they designed it to protect your core and not limit flexiblity.
Hey, glad you like it! It really does feel like I imagine a bulletproof vest would. I guess that's a nice suggestion of security to have, though I'm trying to avoid throwing myself into rocks just because I can...

If you're going to ride on the street with it, do follow up at the STN thread. I might take mine on the road once in a while, but it's mostly for dirt for me.

Let me know if you figure out how to pack the thing. I un-velcro-ed and folded and rolled mine quite a bit, and it never did seem to get any smaller. You can kind of lay it flat. Sort of. But it's still big.

L2I - yeah, I saw a lot of the options out there while I was shopping. It looks like the "pro" versions of rider's vests are some of the least protective, yet most expensive. I don't get it, either. I do like the zipper up the front; it lets me take the thing off without removing my helmet, while leaving all the adjustment velcro in place. I guess the wrap-around styles wouldn't be any worse than a regular roost protector, but I don't want to wear one of those, either.

And isn't 16 kN at 50 J rather high for a new high-end product? I thought we were looking for 4 kN or less.

Dave
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:57 PM   #24
Effervescent
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I have a Givi but sizing it up, it doesn't even look close to fitting.

I think I found an answer though: http://www.pac-safe.com/www/index.ph...n=detail&id=48 it's a thin steel cable "bag' for putting your camping backpack in when you travel. Allows you to lock it to the bike (or pole). Basically it's a steel cable net that you would lock this vest/ur leathers/boots/helmet inside then lock to the bike.

$59 for the 85 liter one; http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/st...0226&langId=-1

-Eff
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Old 09-14-2006, 03:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldbandit76

And isn't 16 kN at 50 J rather high for a new high-end product? I thought we were looking for 4 kN or less.

Dave
Yeah, I hammered Richard at T-Pro about that, though he was nice enough to divulge it in the first place. I went over the more appropriate figures, and he turned to consultation of Paul Varnsverry and reassured me that it was still a prototype and they would get it right, but they were obviously concerned about use under tight clothing being a huge issue for mc riding use. We went back and forth a little bit about the testing procedures, and Varnsverry explained some of the issues a little, but he was very happy that Davies O'Dell wanted formal help with the development of it after talking to me. I haven't gotten any updates on it, but owe him a reply. They did sort of attempt to discount the 4kN measurement and the testing devices as being more severe than what was used in gathering the numbers, which I believe was cadaver and car accident based research, and made note of the different anvils used in the different standards, but that didn't really change anything in my mind about it, only that 1621-2 level 2 numbers may be acceptable for a package that is wearable under leathers if the equestrian vest isn't.
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Old 09-15-2006, 02:22 AM   #26
Effervescent
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What does that mean in English?

-Eff
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Old 09-15-2006, 03:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Effervescent
What does that mean in English?

-Eff
T-Pro's new rib/torso piece allows too much force to reach the body, about 4 times what your horse rider vest allows under a similar amount of drop energy. So it's not quite up to speed with the horse rider vests. They are trying to improve on it to work better for mc-riding use without being too bulky for wearing under tighter fitting outer garments.

It's still likely much better than any other motorcycling-specific attempts at protection for the area, in both coverage and impact protection values, but in terms of the body's threshold for broken bones, it leaves some room for improvement to be a real worthy option for real protection against minor injuries. The good news is that they are working on it, I guess, which may provide a better answer for more types of riding environments or use with more outer garment choices than the bulkier horse riding vests. Meanwhile I'm glad to see the horse riding vests working as well. Their use and price could have a great effect on the price of better options for mc-specific protectors as well, that seem greatly over-priced and over-hyped when the performance advantages are measured and laid-out.

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Old 10-04-2006, 06:33 AM   #28
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I've gotten a few questions (okay, one) concerning the stiffness and feel of this vest. In short, the material is stiff; it doesn't bend like fabric, and it's pretty thick (just over an inch or so). The inner, bumpy part of the pads is softer, but the outer part verges on being hard (probably fewer closed-cell bubbles in it there). Trying to fold it is much like trying to roll up a thick back pad from a jacket to fit through the little velcro slot in its pocket.

That said, because of the way it fits, it doesn't feel like I'm wearing medieval plate armor. When I rotate my torso, the vest rotates with me. Bend at the waist and nothing hits. The arm holes clear for all possible contortions, putting earplugs in included (my heavy leather jacket won't let me raise my arms above my head). Under my mesh jacket, in a dirtbike riding position, it really was unobtrusive. I have not tried it under tight-fitting clothes yet, mostly because I don't ride in leather much at all. It's about as thick as a road-race back protector, but all around, so it'll need that much clearance under a jacket.

There were no notes in the included paperwork concerning the material the pads are made of, only that the shell was nylon. They certainly seem to be built for multiple impacts, since there's no warning (like on a helmet) about one-use only or hidden damage to the pads. The Esprit pads look and feel quite a bit like the closed-cell foam CE pads from my Teknic jacket, but that's hardly a thorough analysis.

Hope that helps anyone pondering a purchase. Drop a line if there are more questions.

Dave
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:31 AM   #29
Effervescent
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I think I figured out the trick to using it with my jacket (which aren't loose): Over jacket, not under. I've already placed a large blue reflective strip between the shoulder blades.

-Eff
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Old 10-04-2006, 10:35 AM   #30
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I was wrong about it not fitting in the Givi:

Sidi Corsa (not small!), vest, JR overpants.

Empty.

With vest.

Then boots.

Then lock (to lock helmet to triple clamp after parking)

Then overpants.

Folding over vest front.

There's still room so I added practice golf balls but I imagine that's where gloves, wallet, EZ-pass, GPS could all goes)

Case closed! Basically, that would just leave my jacket (and tank bag) left over. My systemcases are packed to the gills but normally those could fit there easily.

G_d, I fucking love my Givi!

-Eff
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