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Old 12-12-2006, 03:58 PM   #121
tkorpi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldbandit76
You're close there: the squared term isn't linear; it's just predictable and defined. And therefore there are non-linear systems that are predictable, much like braking performace. That's where my analogy breaks (ha!) down.

I don't think (and I could be wrong) that impact absorbtion is an easily predictable system though; the pads don't have an easy formula to describe their behavior. If it were, there would be no need for the Cambridge studies at 100 J, nor would there need to be a difference between Snell and DOT helmet tests (please, let's not start that debate here, though). I have a sneaking hunch that pad behavior looks a lot like a "hockey stick" graph, performing in one fashion up to a point, then shifting modes dramatically when the energy gets high enough to pack down the pads.

Dave
No doubt that impact protectors behave in some complicated, non linear fashion. Especially at the extreme low and extreme high ends of their functional ranges. And I'm sure that brakes get more than a little wacky at their functional extremes as well. Clearly, 30 mph and 60 mph stops don't stress modern brakes much. Anyway, I guess my point was simply that one shouldn't expect that stopping distance vary linearly with speed simply because of the nature of kinectic energy. In your example we should expect it to be 4x longer from 60 mph as it is from 30 mph. Who would have thought that a Tipperary Air Esprit vest would have me thnking back to high school physics!?! Fun stuff!
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:58 PM   #122
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Remember silly putty? You could pull it slowly apart with your hands, and IIRC, hit it with a hammer and break it!

all the best,

Mike
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:14 PM   #123
Effervescent
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I have yet to remove the back armor from the vest.

I know I would be pissed at myself if I had a big crash w/o it. I want the vest to fit under my jacket but it seems to be too big. It fits better over the jacket.

Adding to the matter is that I want a hi-viz jacket badly, after riding with some buddies recently. Everyone else disappears in front of me (blending in with the tarmac but that damn Motoport hi-viz stands out always. If I wear the vest over a hi-viz, it kinda sorta defeats the purpose.

Whether right or wrong: I believe the vest is safer over the jacket than not using it. I am not worried about it inducing a tumble. I fear the big highway speed get-off. I assume I would tumble a bit anyway, in that case.

Adding to the matter for me is I have the hit-air vest. I have not figured how to use it all together. I suspect the tip vest and hit-air together a) won't fit and b) is overkill. I like that the hit air protects the neck a bit. A neck twist will ruin your day lol

The answer might be for me to get the motoport hi-viz jacket kevlar (stretch!) with tip vest under.

Then just wear the hit air vest with my summer vanson (and no tip vest) but tri-armor undershirt.

I'm so confused! lol

-Eff
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Old 02-26-2007, 11:18 AM   #124
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Sorry to bring this back from the dead, I haven't read the whole thread very attentively but there appears to have been some drama along the way.

Anyway I received mine and noticed it didn't have any BETA or EN tags on it. Upon contacting the manufacturer I was told that this vest, the *Air* Esprit, only meets the ASTM 1937 standard. Its predecessor, the plain ol' Esprit, which I don't think is being produced anymore, was BETA certified. I was also told this new one was made out of a different material so I have no idea if it would pass the certification or not if it were indeed tested.

It appears to me that some commercial websites did not update their description for the new Air Esprit which has led to some of the confusion here. Here is one of the Google links that comes up:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/product...cd2=1172517216

I was told that the ASTM standard is "similar." Now, if license2ill were here I'm sure he'd be happy to go into the details of whether or not that's true, but alas he's been banned, I guess he peed in someone important's Wheaties. Shame to ban someone like that with all the knowledge that he has brings, especially on one of the more safety conscious forums on the internet.



***Cliff's Notes***

Tipperary Air Esprit vest turns out not to be BETA level 3 certified.
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Old 02-27-2007, 05:11 AM   #125
ldbandit76 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOsquid
Tipperary Air Esprit vest turns out not to be BETA level 3 certified.
And boy do I feel like a heel for that. For all of you folks who bought one on my recommendation, presuming the performance of the BETA standard, my sincere apologies. I never thought caveat emptor would go this far.

If it makes any difference, I'm stuck with mine, too.

I wonder if Paul V. knows anything about the ASTM standard.

Dave
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Old 02-27-2007, 11:19 AM   #126
NOsquid
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Paul Varnsverry told me he didn't have a copy of the ASTM standard. He did say that he spoke to some manufacturers about the differences before and what they noted was that the neck line is required to be higher on ASTM pieces, and there is some (possibly unsubstantiated?) fear that this might bash your windpipe in a crash.

Putting my vest one, it is possible for it to hit my neck if I curl up.

It's kind of sad that all this standards info isn't easily available.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:48 PM   #127
NOsquid
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I traded my Air Esprit in for an old stock Esprit the shop had laying in the back, they were pretty happy to trade, go figure

The old one has the BETA and EN tags on it. It's noticably heavier, but that is the only drawback. It's softer and less rigid, I find it more comfortable. Moving around on my track bike and smacking the tank with the new Air Esprit was borderline painful, it has very little give, kind of like EPS in helmets but not quite. Probably not an issue for you guys.

I emailed Charles Owen and they told me the BETA had more impact protection but no details:

"There are two parts to protection: the protection claimed by the garment &
the independent testing carried out on the garment.

There are three standards with some having levels of protection within the
std that are commonly used:

EN13158 [3 levels]
BETA 2000 [3 levels]
ASTM F1937

There are three independent test marks
CE
BETA
SEI

The difference between the standards is that BETA & EN13158 level 3 has the
highest impact rating
ASTM has testing at low & high temperatures rather than the above standards
just test at 68F
The CE mark is a once off design test
The BETA does annual testing
SEI requires annual testing & annual visit to the factory to check on
consistency of manufacture.

Charles Owen makes their vests to all three stds at the highest level & has
it checked by all three independent test authorities so that riders can be
assured of the best protection."
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Old 03-15-2007, 02:50 PM   #128
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The bike clothing/protection equipment doesn't look good in comparison. I suppose the horse riding context is not concerned with "style". It would be good to see more bike gear manufacturers getting involved in standards like this.
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:29 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOsquid
Charles Owen makes their vests to all three stds at the highest level & has
it checked by all three independent test authorities so that riders can be
assured of the best protection."
NOsquid, thank you very much for following up on this one. It looks like there are products out there that do what I expected the Air Esprit to do; it's just not one of them.

If you have a chance to post a pic or two of the Esprit, that would be very cool.

This Owen product might also fit the bill:

http://www.doversaddlery.com/charles...-40289/cn/128/

As for me, my Air Esprit has endured its trial by fire, and since I have it, I'll wear it and not worry too much about it. It's a whole lot better than the average roost protector, and probably at least the equal of most other cycle gear. In hindsight, I may have done differently, but there you go.

Shame this thread got moved to Vendors, though. Blame Wayne.

Dave
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Old 03-31-2007, 08:12 AM   #130
NOsquid
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The old one looks pretty much like the new one. It's a little heavier and not perforated. From what I can glean from internet pictures, all the vests look to have a very similar design. I can't see materials or thickness, but so far as coverage they all look the same.
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Old 02-07-2009, 09:05 AM   #131
Effervescent
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Charles Owen Ultralite Body Protector Vest:
Body protector vests certified to EN13158: 2000, ASTM-F 1937-98, and BETA 2000 Level 3, the highest industry safety standards.

http://www.legacytack.com/p/10417/Ch...or%20Vest.html

$215

-Eff
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:00 AM   #132
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And for $260 you can custom order it in hi-zi.

-Eff
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:17 AM   #133
mrpete64
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So...what is a person to do???

After sitting here, with two broken ribs from falling off my bike in Baja, Mexcio, what do I buy to help keep me from doing this again?
I am not really worried about the cost since it cost me $2500 for the hospital "experience."

Do I buy a Tipperary Air Esprit...or????
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:53 PM   #134
Effervescent
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Probably would have prevented those. :(

-Eff
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:58 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Effervescent
Probably would have prevented those. :(

-Eff
How do you like your quad armour compared to your vest?
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