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Old 09-01-2006, 08:23 AM   #16
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodog
...
The hardest part was finding TDC. I haven't figured out a way to strap my dial indicator on very well so it took a few trys. I know you can do it with a straw but I am a machinist. I want to know within .001". I can't help it!
...
Man, when it rains it pours!

Too bad you are so meticulous, otherwise you could have just used creeper's " TDCC is where you find it..." how-to in the index. I know you are a machinist, but he really knows valves - for example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
... when locating TDC-C for the purposes of valve inspection and adjustment. In a real engine, valves do not open and close at TDC and BDC... they open before and after these reference points to accommodate the realities of pressure and velocity. It is for this reason you must be very near TDC-C to ensure that both intake and exhaust valves are at a complete rest and all valve lash is present and accounted for.
...
Although he might be indicating that there are times when you would want to more precisely measure TDCC (now? LC4Pilot stated creeper's TDCC guide was adequate for this proceedure.), I got the impression they don't care much about 0.001" ( how many degrees of flywheel rotation?)... well, read his how-to!

From his valve adjustment how-to I found valves do care about 0.001" of travel, and "measuring" that was a learning experience to say the least. You machinists must enjoy it.
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:23 AM   #17
todd83-900t
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
Man, when it rains it pours!
I apologize, what I meant to write was that I'm interested in using a dial indicator to measure the valve lash, not find TDC. I'm not a fan of feeler gauges, you have to get the angle just right.

Sorry for the distraction.
Todd
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd83-900t
I apologize, what I meant to write was that I'm interested in using a dial indicator to measure the valve lash, not find TDC. I'm not a fan of feeler gauges, you have to get the angle just right.

Sorry for the distraction.
Todd
Why? Is a .001" increment feeler gauge less accurate than your .001" increment dial indicator... which must be in perfect alignment with the arc of the rocker arm to be 100% accurate?
Is your "feel" so suspect that you don't trust your own measurements when using a feeler gauge?
Do you not believe that a .006" feeler gauge is actually .006"?
Are you aware that there is less error in the average feeler gauge blade than in your average dial indicator?

In all truth... what is your rationale for poo poo'ing a feeler gauge in this application?
My intent is not to embarrass you Todd... I want to understand why you would perceive a dial to be a better choice of measuring device in this application...a reason to warrant a far more complicated method with a greater chance for error.

My history is in mechanical and technical education... so what I'm looking for is the logic behind the tool usage.
If you've been mislead, or have an erroneous pre-conceived notion... operating under a misconception so to speak, I'd like to offer some perspective.

C
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:27 AM   #19
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Quote:
I want to understand why you would perceive a dial to be a better choice of measuring device in this application
.....now I've done it:)

Here's my reasoning. The total error in the valve lash measurement = error in your technique + instrumentation error.
Lets look at each contribution separately.

Instrumentation error:
My Harbor Freight test indicator has a graduation of .0005" so I'll say that it'll be accurate to within +- 0.0005 ish? for an absolute measurement. I'd be using it to take a difference so the bias in the indicator should cancel out. I'm not sure about the hysteresis effects, with this cheap-o gauge.

Feeler gauge: I'm not sure what the tolerance of the motion-pro gauge is maybe +- 0.0002" ish? (probably more accurate)

The feeler blade is more accurate and if this was the only source of error I'd be happy with either instrument, but it isn't.

Technique error

My experience (1 valve adjustment) with a feeler gauge has been that the measurement is not repeatable for the reasons listed below. I'm really big on repeatability.
  • -When I used 2 different feeler gauges, (home made & motion pro) the "feel" were significantly different, which is disconcerting. In theory they should have "felt" exactly the same. The main difference between the two gauges was the way the blade was mounted on the holder.

    -If there is any deformation/flexing in the blade as you move it back and forth you'll get a different "feel."

    -Any oil on the blade gives you a different "feel." The "feel" is really the amount of force necessary to overcome the static/dynamic friction. Yes, I wiped the blade clean before each measurement, but there was still oil residue on the shoe & rocker arm.

    -One of the two surfaces is on a gimble and positioning the gauge so you're measuring the minimum distance between shoe and the rocker arm is challenging. Challenging only because of the poor access.

With a test indicator you'd need to be careful about positioning the pointy thing on top of the adjustment nut/screw but if you're consistent on every valve I think you'll get a better measurement. It should also be very repeatable. As a sanity check you could, and probably should, go back and use a feeler gauge. Again I've never used this technique but it appears that there would be fewer variables that you have to control for. Also access would be better.

Nothing will be 100% accurate but I spent 2 nights after work trying to get the right "feel" and I'm just looking for a better way.

Todd
P.S. If you'd like to continue this discussion we should probably start a new thread or converse via email.
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Old 09-01-2006, 12:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd83-900t
.....now I've done it:)

Here's my reasoning. The total error in the valve lash measurement = error in your technique + instrumentation error.
Lets look at each contribution separately.

Instrumentation error:
My Harbor Freight test indicator has a graduation of .0005" so I'll say that it'll be accurate to within +- 0.0005 ish? for an absolute measurement. I'd be using it to take a difference so the bias in the indicator should cancel out. I'm not sure about the hysteresis effects, with this cheap-o gauge.

Feeler gauge: I'm not sure what the tolerance of the motion-pro gauge is maybe +- 0.0002" ish? (probably more accurate)

The feeler blade is more accurate and if this was the only source of error I'd be happy with either instrument, but it isn't.

Technique error

My experience (1 valve adjustment) with a feeler gauge has been that the measurement is not repeatable for the reasons listed below. I'm really big on repeatability.
  • -When I used 2 different feeler gauges, (home made & motion pro) the "feel" were significantly different, which is disconcerting. In theory they should have "felt" exactly the same. The main difference between the two gauges was the way the blade was mounted on the holder.

    -If there is any deformation/flexing in the blade as you move it back and forth you'll get a different "feel."

    -Any oil on the blade gives you a different "feel." The "feel" is really the amount of force necessary to overcome the static/dynamic friction. Yes, I wiped the blade clean before each measurement, but there was still oil residue on the shoe & rocker arm.

    -One of the two surfaces is on a gimble and positioning the gauge so you're measuring the minimum distance between shoe and the rocker arm is challenging. Challenging only because of the poor access.

With a test indicator you'd need to be careful about positioning the pointy thing on top of the adjustment nut/screw but if you're consistent on every valve I think you'll get a better measurement. It should also be very repeatable. As a sanity check you could, and probably should, go back and use a feeler gauge. Again I've never used this technique but it appears that there would be fewer variables that you have to control for. Also access would be better.

Nothing will be 100% accurate but I spent 2 nights after work trying to get the right "feel" and I'm just looking for a better way.

Todd
P.S. If you'd like to continue this discussion we should probably start a new thread or converse via email.
Interesting... so a combination of lack of repeatability on your part, based on your inconsistency of feel, and a desire to remove those inconsistent perceptions from the task warrants the use of a dial indicator.

When the touch of the hand is suspect... trust the repeatability of the machine instead... yes?

Seems reasonable... and going back and forth between two forms of feeler gauge could be frustrating in this application. What to trust... yes?

I would put it to you that extreme accuracy, in this case is not required. A "feel" of 0.0005" +/- is more than sufficient for the precision needed. I wouldn't worry about the oil... but rather use it to your advantage.

I would suggest using a micrometer (I just know you have one), set to .006", with a film of motor oil on the anvils, as a reference gauge for your feeler gauge feel.
If the valve lash feels similar to the micrometer feel... you have more than enough accuracy for the precision required.

If you feel more comfortable with using a dial indicator, and it's obvious you understand how to achieve good accuracy with one, then by all means use it in good health.
When doing our own work, we have the luxury of doing it at any pace we choose... so the method of measurement should be the one we have faith in, regardless of the time we might need to produce that measurement.

Inquisition over... have a nice day.
C
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:07 PM   #21
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Wow! I don't know where this came from. I am not using the dial indicator for measuring valve lash. I used it to find TDC on the top of the piston. I don't even understand why you would put yourself through that kind of hell. But what ever works good for you. I think Creeper's method is a good rule of thumb for finding TDC. I just like knowing the absolute TDC when doing that stuff. I guess it just makes me feel better. Feeler gauges are more than enough to measure valve lash. I am sure + or - .001" is good enough for this adjustment. Feeler gauges are a very precise way to measure. I have boxes of gauge blocks and pins in our shop to measure with. You can't fool a feeler gauge.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:06 PM   #22
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd83-900t
.....now I've done it:)
...
Nothing will be 100% accurate but I spent 2 nights after work trying to get the right "feel" and I'm just looking for a better way.
...
Hiya Todd! Yes, you did... luckly for you the right fella was answering. Now let the rest of us take a shot at ya

The first time I tried to use a feeler gauge to measure +/- 0.001" I thought to myself: "There is no way will I get the hang of this." But there I was with my jam nuts loose and no way around it... So, after asking a very smart lil' birdy for some guidance on the use of a feeler gauge, I actually taught myself the feel of +/- 0.001". U can 2.

My process was this: I tightened the gap down until the feeler would not move, then loosened it up until the feeler didn't drag at all and then methodically varied the adjustment throughout that range, experiencing the variability across the range, until I found the "middle" and took that as the correct feel. I was up late that night, but learning takes time. BTW, the entire range was, as I recall, only "two hours" of rotation on the jam nut!

I don't think it's as bad as you think! See Post #92 in Creeper's valve adjustment thread for my whole soap opera.

PS - Zerodog, you started it! I probably shouldn't ask, but why do you think the measurement of TDCC should be so exact, when you don't use a micrometer to measure valve lash?
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:12 PM   #23
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hey zerodog, sorry to hear about your recent waterpump troubles. looks like i really screwed ya huh? sold you a crap bike and timed it just right for the waterpump to go out, man i'm good. just wait till the sawdust i put in the crankcase stops doing its job, wow what a racket.
oh, and your right about your assumption, 16k miles and the bike has never been opened up to my knowledge past the covers to check valve clearance. it never needed to be.
FYI, i believe everything is original outside of the normal wear parts (brakes, chain & sprockets, tires ect) so i guess you should brace yourself for the things that start to happen with mileage, maybe clutch replacement in the future, i would guess anywhere from next month to a few years.
again man, sorry i sold you a bike w/o telling you the waterpump was gonna go out in a couple thousand miles.
yeah i am being a bit sarcastic but badmouth the bike all you want, i standby the bike being in good shape at its mileage.

2 SPOT screwed with this post 09-01-2006 at 02:21 PM
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
PS - Zerodog, you started it! I probably shouldn't ask, but why do you think the measurement of TDCC should be so exact, when you don't use a micrometer to measure valve lash?
First off I am doing the water pump so I want the slot in the cam as vertical as possible so the pump comes out easy. So dead nuts TDC gives me that. I have always had bikes that have some kind of marks to line up for finding TDC so I like to be sure of what I am doing.
How on earth do you measure valve lash with a micrometer? A feeler gauge is right on if used correctly too.

2spot,
Judging by my low coolant and oil color when I got back from picking up the bike I am pretty sure I bought it with this problem. Yeah I left this deal with my ass hurting at bit. I just keep finding stuff wrong. Some of it is basic maintence stuff, some of it is pretty bigtime. What is the epoxy on the back of the motor all about? I just found that one the other day when I found the shock leaking oil. I don't think that came from the factory! And did you ever find the forks pretty hard to align, like the clamps are tweeked a bit? The list goes on and on. Don't get me started. It's not a bad bike I just paid way too much for what I got and what the bike has needed. You don't need to get on here and be sarcastic about it. I have never said anything bad directly about you. Even though I wanted to. I figured that wasn't a cool thing to do. I did buy it. My excitement got the best of me. I learned a lot too....About buying bikes. Everyone has different opinions about maintenance and quality. I ride my motorcycles pretty hard. So I was never expecting a show bike. But when someone tells me, "the bike is tight, needs nothing, is a 9 out of 10", that is what I was expecting. Not a long list of stuff the bike needs in the very near future. So whatever....

Hey, anyone have a set of 640 triple clamps they want to get rid of?
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:57 PM   #25
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i dont want this to be a big pissing contest. i appreciate you not dragging our differences out and i should do the same, sorry for the sarcastic comments.
i dont know about the epoxy, the bike didnt leak anything anywhere when i owned it so i never noticed epoxy. remember i only owned the bike about 6 months before i sold it to you and in that time i never had any issues. i dont know about the triple clamps, but now that you mention it it didnt seem as stable as i thought it would be when i took both hands off the wheel, i chocked it up to head angle and i guess that shows my ignorance in such matters. the only coolant leak, or low coolant i ever noticed was after it puked some when i was stuck in traffic on a very hot day. topped it off and didnt have any issues, or milky oil or anything that would indicate a blown water pump seal. you seem to be much more detailed than i am about bikes, so when i said it was tight and needed nothing, i meant it. i had a good expierence on the bike and i only hope you can too despite the flaws you keep finding.
peace
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Old 09-01-2006, 04:06 PM   #26
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2spot and zerodog

Both of you are do'n pretty good; but, you two may want to have any further bike discussion via PM or email. It could get messy here quick when yur fellow Advers find the tiny blood trail and start to feed and rip some huge wounds
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creeper
My history is in mechanical and technical education...
C

That explains a few things!



Maybe 2spot should buy a set of subtanks and call it good...
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Old 09-02-2006, 07:14 AM   #28
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodog
First off I am doing the water pump so I want the slot in the cam as vertical as possible so the pump comes out easy. So dead nuts TDC gives me that. I have always had bikes that have some kind of marks to line up for finding TDC so I like to be sure of what I am doing.
How on earth do you measure valve lash with a micrometer? A feeler gauge is right on if used correctly too.
...
Hey, anyone have a set of 640 triple clamps they want to get rid of?
Well, the manual says you can use the marks "of" flywheel (really, it did), but then gives no further input. So if there is some standard way to use flywheel marks you are good to go; either that or KTM mechanics must have factory training to interpret the repair manual...

LC4pilot (and la Familia's Technical Review Unit) did not find that level of precision to be required.
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Old 09-02-2006, 08:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnerbuck
For locating and holding the engine at TDC there is a locating bolt on the shifter side on the front of the engine beside the spin on filter. Remove this 8mm bolt, shine a flashlight in and when the engine is at TDC with the valves slack you will see a recess cutout in the crankshaft. You can use KTM part #580 30 080 000 to screw in this hole and engage the cutout to in effect lock the crankshaft at TDC while you work on the engine. I made my own locating screw by using a 8mm stud, grind a point on one end and a screw driver slot on the other so you can turn it in. I prefer this unit to the KTM unit as it clears the oil filter better.
I think gunnerbuck said it all right here. I will try this out next time. I will have a look today and see if I can find it. My mark should be right in the window.
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Old 09-02-2006, 11:11 AM   #30
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodog
I think gunnerbuck said it all right here. I will try this out next time. I will have a look today and see if I can find it. My mark should be right in the window.
It's your world. I was just curious why you thought the methods used successfully by others would be inadequate. Perhaps your additional precision will help the slot in the cam to be as vertical as possible and the pump will slide out just like greased lightning!

PS - the micrometer was a joke based upon earlier discussion. Personally I have never used one...
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