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Old 09-21-2006, 02:08 AM   #16
Happe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losiu
Tnanks Happe. Based on what you and Beez are saying this carb is a cheaper alternative that's definitely worth while. I looked at prices at SUDCO. If I'm correct, a complete TM40 is around $300 whereas FCR mounted on KTMs is around $560. TM40 is almost HALF the price!!!!
Riding in Poland is really fun. Getting aftermarket parts isn't :( Can't find a carb like this anywhere. Maybe I should go through a Harley parts catalog !! I'll probably try Germany next :)

By the way... if I have to order it from Germany or buy it used and there still order extra parts from somewhere far, WHAT will I need to put it in the bike?? Do the throttle cables fit? Does the boot for the airbox fit? Any suggestions? I'd like to get them all at the same time :) Thanx

Losiu
Hi,

I know that riding in Poland is fun, was in Masuria in May 2005

The TM40 is a direct replacement for the BST40, cables, boot, choke all fitting perfectly.

Best address in Germany is KTM Sommer, they are setup for international business, they are quick and by far the most helpful bunch of KTM fanatics I ever met.

cu
Stefan
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Old 09-21-2006, 08:48 AM   #17
alpiv
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Tm40

Can we get some more detail on this carb TM40...
How does it behave :
Off idle --
Mid-range
and High speed...
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:47 AM   #18
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpiv
Can we get some more detail on this carb TM40...
How does it behave :
Off idle --
Mid-range
and High speed...
Search Thumpers for "TM40" and you will have your answers - Flanny was probably the first to use it, and he liked it before switching to an FCR - don't know why he switched (chronic tinkerer?).

See:
Flanny
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...m40#post915631

Interesting to note that Flanny found traction to become an issue with the pumper carbs. Creeper's note about the BST smoothing power delivery was not simply carb-esoterica...

custom cables required?
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40

setup question (never answered )
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40

Quicksilver posts:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40

After all that, please see Post #23:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...highlight=TM40
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:30 PM   #19
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well..... that post #23 you mentioned, meat popsicle, gave me a lot to think about.
After looking at the prices, the TM40 seems to be the best choice. I never really considered getting one but with the price being close to half of an FCR it seems reasonable. Based on what everybody is saying and considering the price, the difference in performance can't make the FCR a better choice at this point :)

There's only one thing... Happe says a TM 40 is super easy to install on an LC4 and Flanny was fiddling around with it until he figured out how to make it fit and work. How come there are such differences in opinions??

Losiu

P.S. Keep pasting those links to different threads about carbs, meat popsicle, and you'll make sure hanging on the comp is all I do in my free time. I even forgot to do a wheelie on the way form work today
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Old 09-22-2006, 04:09 PM   #20
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A friend of mine brings bikes from all over Europe - mostly from Switzerland and Germany. I went to look at the bikes he has for sale and just out of curiosity looked under the gas tank of a '93 KLX 650. I was in shock!!!
Here I am asking about carbs and making plans how I'm going ot get a TM40 around February (when riding here is impossible and when someone I know will be in the States to bring one for me) and there it is!!! he funny thing is that it has a SUDCO sticker on it!!! I didn't waste my time and put that carb in my LC4:

-I found that it's true about fitting the carb on an LC4 (mine is a2002). It's not THAT easy. Choke is not a problem but the throttle cables make it a little hard. I put mine on just for a test ride - it still needs some work or cables replacement.
-The boot for the airbox is a little loose - again I just put it on and tightened the stock clamp around it...for now...
-The front of the carb is a little smaller in diameter than the BST but again.... I just tightened the bolts...

It seems that the carb sits in there well enough, though I'm going to follow Flanny's advice as to fitting because what I did is clearly temporary. I put a 155 main jet because I didn't want to make it too rich...
The bike started right away and idles fine. The throttle response in neutral seemed OK and there were no problems so I took it for a spin. It seems that the bike is a little smoother and has more low-end power. After I warmed it up a little I started experimenting. I usually measure throttle response by trying a wheelie in 2nd gear. Nothing special here - possibly a little more snap but nothing that amazing. In the third gear also comparable with the BST power-wise but I can tell it needs adjustment.
As soon as the front wheel gets high enough to call it a proper wheelie, the angine loses power. The carb was set up for the KLX and the main jet was smaller (couldn't read the size) and the needle clip was in the 2nd position (moved it to 4th) I also tried the 165 main jet later and not much changed.

I think I need to install the carb properly (according to what Flanny said) and adjust the AP squirt. Then I'll mess with jetting. I'm glad I'm getting to try it before I buy one but it's not as easy as it seemed....

I feel I need to make one thing clear, though... I don't need a pumper carb to do wheelies. I'm suprised by reading some posts about how hard doing wheelies in 2nd or 3rd gear is without a pumper carb. I'm perfectly happy doing them in 3rd on my rejetted BST. It just requires a little technique - nothing else.
I simply use the bike for EVERYTHING. I only take the car if I have to. Since I do a lot of riding on pavement, extra power is extremely useful. Wheelies simply help me see the diffrence in throttle response and power.

Los
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Old 09-22-2006, 05:06 PM   #21
meat popsicle
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WHOOP! there it is!

You know, ahem, I've been wondering (my mind wanders into all sorts of trouble, but nonetheless!) perhaps the appeal of the FCR and its ilk is the relative ease of extracting performance in comparsion to the BST. Note that extracting was carefully chosen word.

Perhaps it is easier for those who are less skilled at tuning to extract more performance from a FCR, which has more inate ability in this regard, than a BST, which may require more fine-tuning for equivalent perfomance. Put simply: a hack tuning an FCR is going to get more throttle-smack than a hack tuning a BST.

(cut to the chase) So the question remains how much better is an FCR than a BST? And for those who care, is it $500+ mo'betta? I propose this: someone send their kitted Keihin FCR to creeper (in good shape mind you) so that he can set it up to the best of his ability and compare it to his own BST on his very own bike. That should allow for a valid comparison IMhO and provide this discussion with the eulogy it never deserved.

Oh yeah, I believe he would like a FCR39... I say this because he just might do the comparison if he gets to keep the carb.

PS - I too would probably be able to extract more performance from a FCR than a BST, so don't think I am feeling all high and mighty.
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meat popsicle screwed with this post 09-22-2006 at 09:17 PM Reason: bah humbug
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Old 09-22-2006, 05:45 PM   #22
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I have the Mikuni TM40 installed on my bike and for the $250 investment it was well worth it.

I set mine up per Flanny's instructions and the bike runs better then with the stock BST40. It starts easier, and throttle responsive is much better from the low to mid rpm range.

Tom
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Old 09-23-2006, 01:27 AM   #23
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I've been thinking....
There have been lots of carb threads here and as I mentioned before, some posts surprise me. Let me explain:

Flanny said he can now (with the TM40) wheelie in 3rd gear using small hills or bumps on the road (don't quite remember how he phrased it). I love playing around on the bike and totally enjoy the idea of having more power than I need just in case I need it at some point. I'm not a fan of speed - power is what I like. I learned to wheelie on my 2001 LC4 - completely stock. Until I knew how to do it properly, I thought it was barely possible in 2nd and totally impossible in 3rd. Later it turned out it was totally possible in 3rd and super easy in 2nd. Now I have the 2002 SixDays with all the popular changes. The bike's performance is much better. I wheelie in 3rd without any problems as long as the carb is clean. I never used the 1st gear to start a wheelie unless it's my show off one when I start from stopped and go through all gears on one wheel. All of this was always done with the BST on. I managed to do a wheelie using a hill on the road in the 4th gear on the stock LC4 and did the same on some kind of bump on the rejetted BST in my 2002.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I need the bike to be reliable so exhaust, intake, carb mods are the only one I'm considering. Now let's get back to the carb issue...

I'm slowly starting to believe in one's ease/ability to extract power out of an LC4 (btw, extracting is a pretty good word here). A pumper carb will definitely help but if a BST has that much potential (haven't even done any drilling in mine) than it's a good question whether spending hundreds of $ will pay off... Based on my test ride with the TM40 I think there is a slight improvement in acceleration, especially from mid to high rpms. I might be wrong cuz it's not properly set up yet but....

I'm under the impression that many people here compare the STOCK BST to pumper carbs which actually are similar in performance to properly set up, rejetted BST with screened airbox and a muffler. I'll try to work on the TM40 to get a decent set up and maybe I'll change my mind.

It's getting longish so I'll try to sum it up.
A properly set up, rejetted BST provides pretty good performance. NOT A STOCK ONE ! Out of the available pumper carbs the TM sounds better because it's cheaper than an FCR. I don't know if the FCR is actually worth the money unless someone uses it for racing where it's really useful.

I don't want to offend any TM40 or FCR owners. I still like the idea of getting a little more snap and performance out of my bike through a pumper carb. What I wrote here is purely theoretical (I'm a thinker) and I'd be more than happy if someone proved me wrong because I want to believe that the TM is much better than the BST.

Thanks for your patience :)

Losiu
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Old 09-23-2006, 08:23 PM   #24
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Losiu,

I was compairing a re-jet BST carb to the TM40. The main reason I upgraded the carb is do to the BST's inability to hold a steady rpm while riding through deep whoops.
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Old 09-24-2006, 01:04 AM   #25
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I noticeda few issues with the BST. One of them is thee common thing in the whoops - a kind of hick-up thing. Another thing is the roughness at low revs - especially when it gets dirty around the vacuum piston. It also loses power whan that happens (a little but enough to notice).

I did some more riding with the TM40 and the most amazing thing is its smoothness at low rpms. I have to admit that it's much nicer to ride an LC4 with a carb like that for THAT reason. No vibrations and smooth power delivery. Unfortunately I couldn't experiment too much with the carb because it wasn't mine. I put it back in the KLX I borrowed it from.

I didn't notice the snappy throttle response but I think the squirt wasn't adjusted properly for an LC4. Not to mention the jetting. In the mean time I did the drilling and spring clipping in by BST and put it back on.

The bike has better throttle response than before. Overall performance is comparable with the TM40 I had on but I'm slowly starting to get what it's all about. BST sucks at low revs....

Los
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Old 09-24-2006, 11:12 PM   #26
meat popsicle
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Thank you loisu for much more eloquently posting what I had tried to post (perhaps my slapdash attitude on this subject does not come across well...), including personal experience of the problems that some BST users have complained about - and what reads like some insight into their aetiology, which I am very interested in. It is this experience that I would like to trouble you further. Here are some quotes for example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by loisu
I wheelie in 3rd without any problems as long as the carb is clean.
I do not recall a post here on maintaining the BST, that is unfortunate eh? I am about to rebuild mine, which is at 10,000 miles (did I wait too long? the fuel efficiency and leaky overflow hose leads me to believe I have...). I have not once opened up my BST. (Should I admit that?) How have you maintained your BST, and how often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loisu
I noticed a few issues with the BST. One of them is thee common thing in the whoops - a kind of hick-up thing. Another thing is the roughness at low revs - especially when it gets dirty around the vacuum piston. It also loses power whan that happens (a little but enough to notice).
Perhaps many who experience problems simply have dirty carbs. Again, your experiences here, and your maintenance schedule and routines would be of assistance to many. Do you have time to compile a How to Maintain Your BST thread for us?

Speaking of contrasts, I had the opportunity to ride a fella's RFS bike today offroad. Throttle response was VERY different from by BST-equipped LC4 (which is in need of maintenance and not setup by a pro). I got to feel the SNAP that folks are talking about! It was startling, and very exciting as well. But the experience drove home a bit of technical info posted by creeper (who is very knowledgable about carbs), namely that the BST's smooth power delivery should actually help someone with less throttle control (or clutch for that matter) in offroad riding. I realize that you are focused upon street riding, and smooth does not help with wheelies (sorry I might have contributed to your forgetting to wheelie ), but I thought you might have some comment about this "feature".

As a side note, do you think that a soft rear suspension can have an influence on instantaneous throttle response? I know there are lockouts for forks, so that racers can get off the starting line quicker, so I thought perhaps the rear can be a factor as well. I followed a fella on his LC4, that had the suspension professionally setup, who was bunny-hopping off little bumps, which my bike just soaked up like a Cadillac - got me thinking. Yes, I too am a thinker, who probably needs to ride more!

If you get the time and inclination, some folks might appreciate another how-to from ya: How to Wheelie Your LC4. Could be a fun thread.

BTW, I also notice the lower vibe comment with the TM40 - very interesting - I hope you get one so you can finish your experimenting.
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:54 PM   #27
losiu OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
Perhaps many who experience problems simply have dirty carbs. Again, your experiences here, and your maintenance schedule and routines would be of assistance to many. Do you have time to compile a How to Maintain Your BST thread for us?
OK... here it is:
I'm not sure I have enough knowlege to write about carbs. I wouldn't have posted the questions starting this thread if I knew much about them. Feel free to use what I write here to start a new thread. I have noticed a few interesting things with the BST. Since I do wheelies regularly, I noticed that sometimes the bike loses power when the front wheel is up. Wheelies are then impossible to control and instead of looking cool, it looks like I'm struggling to stay in charge...(and that's not good when you're riding on one wheel). When that happens, I know that it's time to look inside the carb. I hate taking the carb off the bike, even thoough it's quite easy and with a little practise doesn't take long at all, so I usually just unscrew the 2 screws on top of the carb to get to the vacuum cylinder and take it out with my fingers. That alone will in some miraculous way improve the performance of the bike (after you put everything back in the carb, of course). But since it's out, clean all the dirt that's in there. Usually there's enough to see it clearly. After that's all clean, put everything back together and go riding.
The bike will run smoother, in most cases it will eliminate some of the popping on decceleration and...
When there's dirt/dust in there, sometimes when riding at very low steady revs (e.g. in traffic in 2nd gear) I feel that the power delivery is not smooth and there are "fluctuations" in the way power is delivered. If I'm not moving the throttle at all, the revs should be steady and I shouldn't feel any roughness. Unfortunately that's also one of the hints that it might be time to take a look in there. I've had a 640 for 5 years and it does happen from time to time. Use whatever you want to clean the inside of the carb. Q-tips work fine.
I'd recommend cleaning tha area of the carb at every check up (5000km / arnd 3000miles).

Smooth power delivery of the BST helps in a sense with wheelies. It may be easier to do a wheelie having a pumper carb because of the better throttle response but after drilling the holes in the vacuum cylinder I can't complain. So if you have decent throttle response to start a wheelie, it's easier to continue it having smooth power delivery. If it's too snappy, it might be more difficult to control. On the other hand, everything is only a matter of time and practice. There are people who supposedly wheelie GoldWings !!!


Quote:
If you get the time and inclination, some folks might appreciate another how-to from ya: How to Wheelie Your LC4. Could be a fun thread.
BTW, I also notice the lower vibe comment with the TM40 - very interesting - I hope you get one so you can finish your experimenting.
Well, I guess I could start a wheelie thread with some advice for those who'd like to actually learn, not destroy their bikes and health... I've read the forum from time to time but can't be sure whether threads like this have appeared here (and how many of them) so I was going to be careful with what I post :)
If someone with as many posts as you meat popsicle thinks it'd be useful and fun, I'll get to it...

Back to the carb... the smoothness of power delivery of the TM40 I had on my bike was amazing. I have no idea if it was properly adjusted or not. I had no time to mess with it enough. I don't know if every TM40 delivers power the same way, but it seemed you couldn't rev it too low. Normally in 5th gear th lowest speed that the LC4 engine accepts if you want to accelerate is around 80kph. On TM40 I could get as low as 70kph and I didn't hear any strange noise or feel the usual vibrations when speeding up. I can't say the engine was super powerful down there. It was just.... different and kinda cool. Definitely much, much better than BST. I guess that if you consider that it also improves the performance a little and properly adjusted adds more snap, then it's definitely a nice thing to have and even nicer to use.

I imagine that throttle response doesn't change with a stiffer shock. The grip might change but only in the dirt or loose stuff. As you already know, I don't go offroading that much. I simply have no time. I even have another set of wheels all ready to go...

One more thing about the BST I just remembered... Imagine you're doing a stoppie with the BST. When the rearr wheel goes up, the engine stalls and there is a little puddle of gas under the bike. The hose that the gas spills through is the same one used to drain the carb - at the very bottom of it. I don't have this problem because Instead of letting it go straight down and through the zip-ty by the swingarm axle, I put it up and around the main gas line (the one from the tank to the carb) and then down where it normally goes (it's long enough to reach). There you go - no gas spills or engine stalling

Cheers,
Losiu
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:59 PM   #28
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Fascinating thread. Good on you Losiu and thanks for your contributions.

In an effort to preserve economy as well as improve perfomance I've spent a bit of time modding cv carbs to work/perform more like slide carb on a variety of bikes... and with some good results.

Losiu, if you ever come across a stock Buell/Kehin 40mm cv carb (they're cheap as borscht in North America because everyone's replaced them with HSR40's) and you're enclined to experiment, you may be surprised how well it can be made to work. A unique/useful feature of the Kehin 40mm cv carb is it's accelerator pump.

Thanks again and all the best to you.
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Old 09-26-2006, 12:23 AM   #29
meat popsicle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losiu
OK... here it is:
I'm not sure I have enough knowlege to write about carbs. I wouldn't have posted the questions starting this thread if I knew much about them. Feel free to use what I write here to start a new thread.

I have noticed a few interesting things with the BST. Since I do wheelies regularly, I noticed that sometimes the bike loses power when the front wheel is up. Wheelies are then impossible to control and instead of looking cool, it looks like I'm struggling to stay in charge...(and that's not good when you're riding on one wheel). When that happens, I know that it's time to look inside the carb.

I hate taking the carb off the bike, even thoough it's quite easy and with a little practise doesn't take long at all, so I usually just unscrew the 2 screws on top of the carb to get to the vacuum cylinder and take it out with my fingers. That alone will in some miraculous way improve the performance of the bike (after you put everything back in the carb, of course).

But since it's out, clean all the dirt that's in there. Usually there's enough to see it clearly. After that's all clean, put everything back together and go riding. The bike will run smoother, in most cases it will eliminate some of the popping on decceleration and...

When there's dirt/dust in there, sometimes when riding at very low steady revs (e.g. in traffic in 2nd gear) I feel that the power delivery is not smooth and there are "fluctuations" in the way power is delivered. If I'm not moving the throttle at all, the revs should be steady and I shouldn't feel any roughness. Unfortunately that's also one of the hints that it might be time to take a look in there. I've had a 640 for 5 years and it does happen from time to time. Use whatever you want to clean the inside of the carb. Q-tips work fine.

I'd recommend cleaning tha area of the carb at every check up (5000km / arnd 3000miles).
Perfect losiu,

Exactly what I was looking for - operational signs of a dirty carb. Sharing your experience with others, regardless of how much knowledge you have of carbs, is priceless. You have qualified your statements very well too! I would go open mine up right now, but I have to be up for work in 6 hours... so I am off to bed shortly. This weekend will have to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by losiu
Smooth power delivery of the BST helps in a sense with wheelies. It may be easier to do a wheelie having a pumper carb because of the better throttle response but after drilling the holes in the vacuum cylinder I can't complain. So if you have decent throttle response to start a wheelie, it's easier to continue it having smooth power delivery. If it's too snappy, it might be more difficult to control. On the other hand, everything is only a matter of time and practice. There are people who supposedly wheelie GoldWings !!!

Well, I guess I could start a wheelie thread with some advice for those who'd like to actually learn, not destroy their bikes and health... I've read the forum from time to time but can't be sure whether threads like this have appeared here (and how many of them) so I was going to be careful with what I post :)
If someone with as many posts as you meat popsicle thinks it'd be useful and fun, I'll get to it...
There are a few reliable sources of info here that like to wheelie, dirtrider for example. Then there will be some steroid junkies, no biggie. The biggest hit will come from the Peanut Gallery, but you just have to learn to enjoy them! I think it could be fun, especially with you teaching folks how to wheelie their BST-equipped LC4

Quote:
Originally Posted by losiu
Back to the carb... the smoothness of power delivery of the TM40 I had on my bike was amazing. I have no idea if it was properly adjusted or not. I had no time to mess with it enough. I don't know if every TM40 delivers power the same way, but it seemed you couldn't rev it too low. Normally in 5th gear th lowest speed that the LC4 engine accepts if you want to accelerate is around 80kph. On TM40 I could get as low as 70kph and I didn't hear any strange noise or feel the usual vibrations when speeding up. I can't say the engine was super powerful down there. It was just.... different and kinda cool. Definitely much, much better than BST. I guess that if you consider that it also improves the performance a little and properly adjusted adds more snap, then it's definitely a nice thing to have and even nicer to use.
Again, I hope you can get ahold of a TM40 for your experiments.

I note the TM40 listed by Sudco has an accelerator pump. Maybe you said that, but it's late! Good night!

Quote:
Originally Posted by losiu
I imagine that throttle response doesn't change with a stiffer shock. The grip might change but only in the dirt or loose stuff. As you already know, I don't go offroading that much. I simply have no time. I even have another set of wheels all ready to go...
I was thinking that a softer rear would absorb some of the energy being transfered from the bike to the ground instead of it being translated into forward momentum. Perhaps this is more important to wheelies... but I am just thinking out loud on this one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by losiu
One more thing about the BST I just remembered... Imagine you're doing a stoppie with the BST. When the rearr wheel goes up, the engine stalls and there is a little puddle of gas under the bike. The hose that the gas spills through is the same one used to drain the carb - at the very bottom of it. I don't have this problem because Instead of letting it go straight down and through the zip-ty by the swingarm axle, I put it up and around the main gas line (the one from the tank to the carb) and then down where it normally goes (it's long enough to reach). There you go - no gas spills or engine stalling

Cheers,
Losiu
Nice mod tip Losiu, I will have to take a look at this one and my slide ASAP!

Cheers,
Meat
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Old 09-26-2006, 01:08 PM   #30
losiu OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lornce
Fascinating thread. Good on you Losiu and thanks for your contributions.

Losiu, if you ever come across a stock Buell/Kehin 40mm cv carb (they're cheap as borscht in North America because everyone's replaced them with HSR40's) and you're enclined to experiment, you may be surprised how well it can be made to work. A unique/useful feature of the Kehin 40mm cv carb is it's accelerator pump.

Thanks again and all the best to you.
Lornce
Thank you Lornce,
I'm glad I could help you guys with my BST experience.BTW The little trick with putting the "drain hose" of the carb up and then down has no side effects. It ONLY makes things better

Lornce!! Does that Buell/Keihin carb have a symbol or something I could use to find it?? Where I live Buells aren't that popular. And knowledge about carbs, tunning them or switching to something else is generally limited. I'm lucky I know English in that respect. I've learnt a lot from ADV Rider and reading other forums :)

I found a used TM40 for sale somewhere else in Europe but the price is 150Euro. Not the best deal...
If I could get the Buell carb, I'd give it a try. Can you write more about the performance and what one needs to put it in an LC4 ???

Losiu
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