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Old 10-30-2006, 06:50 PM   #46
bonox OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside
About the cable issue. Yes it seems possible to have the problem you mention. And because of that, I think the better solution is to try to fit the RT throttle cable return setup to the GS.

This way the cruise control actuator can pull on the return cable.
the cruise only works in a pull direction - the actuator will relax pressure on the cable, but will not force it out (the vacuum operates only on one side - no vacuum means equal pressure on both sides of the diaphragm and no force).

The torsion spring on the cruise quadrant is what returns it - ie keeps pressure on it so the cable does not jump out of the slot. There is a pin on the quadrant that runs in a slot in the primary throttle wheel - ie you can override the cruise to accelerate but not force the actuator off (the cruise actuator rotates the throttle grip in other words - you can keep pressure on the throttle grip to apply more throttle, but you can't back off and get slack in the line). That said, the full cruise unit has a pressure switch to turn off the cruise if you back off hard enough; i'm not installing this yet, as i've never ha da need on any of the other bikes i've installed cruise on, but it is an option if you want to spend the time and money.

Where is the problem?
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:56 PM   #47
rdcyclist
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As I've installed a number of the Audiovox CCS100 units into R12GS's and an ST I'll attempt to address some of the issues brought up here. I'll start with the mechanical aspect.

The main point of reluctance for anybody (including me) besides Riders Choice LLC (LLC stands for Limited Liability Corporation; draw your own conclusions there) to market a kit for the GS and ST is the single cable throttle assembly. As previously pointed out here and other cruise threads, there is no positive return on the throttles, relying solely on the throttle body return springs, so if the cruise malfunctions you could end up with a stuck throttle. I have personally experienced such a malfunction. Pretty surprising when it occurs on a technical dirt single track downhill section. The problem occurred due to water getting into the unit and scrambling the electronic signals. After the unit dried out, it worked fine. I've since perfected a system for waterproofing the Audiovox unit but I'm always aware of the possiblity of a problem.

As far as using an RT throttle assembly, I suppose it is possible (anything is possible if you throw enough money at it) but you would need to change the entire right side control assembly: Throttle assembly, switch assembly and brake master cylinder. If you wanted to balance out the look you'd change the left side too with all of the same stuff needing to be changed out. I think you're looking at over a grand of hardware. Might as well just buy an RT...

What we're calling the cable splitter box in this thread is called a Bowden cable box by BMW. As noted previously, the box is the same casting for all of the R12 bikes with bosses for throttle pull, throttle return, left and right throttle body cables and cruise control actuator. Internally there is provision for a separate pulley that is controlled by the cruise control servo actuator cable. This pulley has its own return spring and also requires the use of a different box cover as the pulley rides on the same shaft as the throttle pulley. There is also provision for a switch that will shut off the cruise should the rider close the throttle while the cruise is engaged.

When I did the first installations the RT hadn't been introduced so I couldn't buy the RT cruise parts so I designed and made my own pulley and spring. I've had those parts in my GS for over 50k miles with no mechanical issues (just the aforementioned wet electronic issue). Even so, on subsequent installations I've used the BMW parts as they work fine and require much less handwork to make work.

To interface the Audiovox vacuum servo actuator to the cable box with the RT parts you'll need to solder a different cable end onto the actuator cable, shorten the threaded cable housing stop and come up with an adaptor to fit the cable housing stop to the box. You'll need to drill the box boss for the adaptor. If you do all of this correctly, the Audiovox unit is pretty easy to make work on the GS/ST.

I've made vacuum reservior (sp?) from 1.5" black plastic plumbing pipe and caps. This seems to help the cruise engage and stay engaged better. I'm also using a vacuum check valve and this helps too.

Now as far as getting the speed signal, I've tapping into the left cylinder secondary coil signal with a 3M vampire connector. This has worked fine for my bike and all of the other bikes I've done. Most of the bikes I've done have been ABS bikes and I've been loath to tap into the ABS signal for the VSS since we're already compromising one of the safety systems of the bike with the cruise control and I don't want to start into the other system with the complexity of the BMW ABS. Another reason for my reluctance is the frequency of the ABS/VSS signal; the Audiovox unit has an upper limit on VSS pulses/mile of 8k. I think the bike VSS is probably 12 to 15k/mile but I haven't checked it with a scope. My current GS is a NonABS version so I could tap the VSS to see if it works better but the tach signal works fine.

I would suggest to our friend from DownUnder find a supplier that will ship from the US to Aus and buy the Audiovox unit. From what I've heard the unit he's trying to use will just end in tears...

If there is interest here I may start selling kits or parts kits to make the CCS100 work. Let me know...
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:11 PM   #48
bonox OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdcyclist
I would suggest to our friend from DownUnder find a supplier that will ship from the US to Aus and buy the Audiovox unit. From what I've heard the unit he's trying to use will just end in tears...

If there is interest here I may start selling kits or parts kits to make the CCS100 work. Let me know...
Hi Mate

why not my unit? (the tears bit?). Mechanically, the actuator looks identical to the ccs-100 unit - the only difference the the computer shipped with my available one doesn't support a high voltage (12V) pulse input. I could spend US$350 for one that does, but the cheaper one costs me less than US$100 and I like to tinker so i'm throwing it to you lot in regards to the electrics.

Additionally, every install that i've done has had a relay between the power source, the actuator and the computer that will cut all power to the actuator when you activate the brakes or the tail light loses power. (ie the pair of relays requires no brake signal and positive tail light signal before it will give power from the computer to the actuator).

This means i've never had a problem with a rogue (runaway) actuator tugging on the throttle and the worst you'd get is being stuck where you are because of something jamming in the bowden box. (btw, in the R12 manual on cd, bmw refers to it as a throttle cable splitter box, not a bowden box - internal bmw policy may be different, i'm just going from their service manual). If that happens, you'd be stuck with or without a throttle return cable at the handgrip, and you still have the clutch and kill switch at your disposal, tricky downhill or not. PS, why was the cruise active (had power) while you were doing that btw?

I'm just trying to ascertain a feasibility of getting signals from the on board hardware of the GS here, not poking sticks at anyone.

thanks for the info on the new cover required for the box - that wasn't apparent from the service drawings.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:17 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonox
the cruise only works in a pull direction . . .
I'm thinking that if the throttle grip return cable is pulled by the cruise actuator, it rotates the throttle grip in the 'open throttle' direction.

You know, instead of hooking the RT return cable to the cable splitter box, just connect it to the cruise actuator.

I think the other fellow (daGeeeze) is thinking that if the cable splitter drum is turned by the cruise actuator what happens is, as the twist grip is without a return cable on the GS, that the 'open' throttle cable will be 'pushing' on the twist grip.

If the cruise actuator turns the splitter drum, the throttle cables also move. And without a return cable to 'pull', then the throttle open cable is 'pushed' at the twist grip.

That's why I'm thinking that the throttle return cable from the RT could be fitted to the GS. And have the cruise actuator pull on the return cable.

- Jim

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Old 10-30-2006, 07:20 PM   #50
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RDcyclist: Does your set up turn off by it self when riding down hill?
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:21 PM   #51
bonox OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside
I'm thinking that if the throttle grip return cable is pulled by the cruise actuator, it rotates the throttle grip in the 'open throttle' direction.

You know, instead of hooking the RT return cable to the cable splitter box, just connect it to the cruise actuator.

I think the other fellow (daGeeeze) is thinking that if the cable splitter drum is turned by the cruise actuator what happens is, as the twist grip is without a return cable on the GS, that the 'open' throttle cable will be 'pushing' on the twist grip.

If the cruise actuator turns the splitter drum, the throttle cables also move. And without a return cable to 'pull', then the throttle open cable is 'pushed' at the twist grip.

That's why I'm thinking that the throttle return cable from the RT could be fitted to the GS. And have the cruise actuator pull on the return cable.

- Jim
err, if you do that, the actuator will keep trying to shut the throttle, which is the complete opposite of what you want to achieve - am I missing something?

looking back at the two pictures on page 3, the two drums are independent, save for the little pin that runs to the end of a slot in the main throttle drum from the cruise drum. If you override the cruise, the computer registers the increase in speed and relaxes pressure on the cruise drum, but it's own spring keeps the cable taught to stop it falling out of the groove.

You can't push a cable - that's why there are two on the RT. The GS makes to with pulling it from both ends (hand on one direction, throttle body springs in the other)

edit: Aha I get what you're saying Jim - perhaps a small torsion member at the hand throttle would fix this - kind of a version of a throttlemeister. A return cable would be easiest though wouldn't it.

How did you solve it rd?

bonox screwed with this post 10-30-2006 at 07:26 PM
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:23 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crilly
RDcyclist: Does your set up turn off by it self when riding down hill?
no, but i never have power connected to it when i'm doing tricky stuff - the only time it gets turned on is when i'm on the boring freeway bits.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:50 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonox
err, if you do that, the actuator will keep trying to shut the throttle, which is the complete opposite of what you want to achieve - am I missing something?

edit: Aha I get what you're saying Jim. A return cable would be easiest though wouldn't it.

How did you solve it rd?
Good thing. I was beginning to think I had it backwards myself.

Right, if the throttle grip return cable is pulled by the cruise actuator, it rotates the throttle grip in the 'open throttle' direction. Get it?

I mean, pulls on the end coming from the twist grip. Not the end coming from the Bowden splitter box.

I'm saying, do not connect the return cable to the bowden box, only connect it to the cruise actuator.

So fitting a return cable kills two birds. One, the return cable will open the throttle if the cruise actuator pulls on it. And two, closing the throttle by hand will also force the cruise actuator closed.



* * * * * *



That's the solution, put a 'double ended' cable from the ferrule at the twist grip. And connect the 'return' side to the cruise actuator.




In the picture above of the 12RT Bowden box, #10 is the return cable. Maybe it can be fitted to the GS? Or if not, maybe a custom cable can be made.

- Jim


Edit: The image is externally linked from MAX BMW online parts fiche.
Located at: http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/fiche.aspx
The fiche is regularly updated, so the image above may not be the 1200RT throttle cables.


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Poolside screwed with this post 12-29-2010 at 04:51 PM
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:09 PM   #54
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BMW sources the perch components from Magura. They supplied the perch, and the brake and clutch masters.

Whether or not BMW installed one, every model of 1150 has always had provision for a throttle return cable built into the perch.

That make sense as Magura is in the motorcycle perch business, they would naturally include a provision for a return cable.

I do not think Magura stopped now. Imagine the indemnity afforded Magura by including provision for a return cable.

So I'm thinking that prolly a throttle return cable can be fitted to the 12GS using the provision that Magura built in. Just like it can on the 1150GS, RT, R, RS etc.

- Jim

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Poolside screwed with this post 10-30-2006 at 08:30 PM
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:19 PM   #55
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*thinking*

*poring over service manuals*

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Old 10-30-2006, 08:33 PM   #56
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I looked at the return cable issue VERY closely before deciding to go with stock cable system. There is absolutely NO WAY to retrofit a return cable to the stock GS/ST/S throttle assembly (what Poolside and BMW calls the perch). There is no place in the housing nor is there a provision on the twist grip tube. As I pointed out, you could use the RT bar controls but the cost and complexity outweigh the return on investment.

The cruise pulley inside the Bowden cable box doesn't get rotated by the throttle cable as there is a pin/slot interface to keep it independent of the primary pulley until the cruise control actuator is brought into play. When the cruise is set and rotating the pulleys, the throttle cable system is designed in such a way that the cable will not jump the groove in the pulley nor will the cable housing pull out of the Bowden box or throttle assembly. It's actually a pretty elegant design.

The parts you need from BMW are numbers 2, 4, and 7. The cruise actuator cable goes into the housing through the hole you can see in the picture just to the left of the number 1. That hole is not drilled in the GS/ST/S Bowden cable boxes. Since it is where BMW designed their CC cable to enter the box, it would follow that it would line up perfectly with their CC pulley. And it does.

The fitting you need to fabricate looks like the fitting on the end of cable #14 in the pic.

I've spent many hours developing the installation on the GS. It's pretty rock solid up to 100mph (tested on a closed course by professionals, of course). Other than my off road water crossing induced failure, my installations have been trouble free. Nonetheless, I'm concerned about liablility with the single cable throttle system. A run away cruise control could be pretty disasterous and lawyers would have a field day.

And NO, my cruise control does NOT shut off when I go downhill. It just keeps the bike at the speed I've set it too.
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:35 PM   #57
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Jim,

There is no provision in the perch for a return cable. I've been completely into the GS throttle system and there is no way to economically retrofit a return cable north of the Bowden cable box.

Yeah, I'm amazed too...

Mark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside
BMW sources the perch components from Magura. They supplied the perch, and the brake and clutch masters.

Whether or not BMW installed one, every model of 1150 has always had provision for a throttle return cable built into the perch.

That make sense as Magura is in the motorcycle perch business, they would naturally include a provision for a return cable.

I do not think Magura stopped now. Imagine the indemnity afforded Magura by including provision for a return cable.

So I'm thinking that prolly a throttle return cable can be fitted to the 12GS using the provision that Magura built in. Just like it can on the 1150GS, RT, R, RS etc.

- Jim
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:16 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdcyclist
There is no provision in the perch for a return cable.

I've been completely into the GS throttle system and there is no way to economically retrofit a return cable north of the Bowden cable box.

Yeah, I'm amazed too...
Yea man, that's cool.

You must also be saying that BMW does not offer the double cable housing, yes?



Well, since you've been through it, maybe you remember something Mark . . .

Does the throttle grip cable drum have a cable groove the whole way 'round?

See, many throttle cable 'pairs' aren't actually two separate cables. Kinda like a pair of pants I guess.

The way it works is there is a single ferrule, and it has a cable coming out from both sides. This 'pair' of cables unfurls from both sides of the throttle grip cable drum.

With the 'double ended' cable, two groves in the throttle grip drum are not needed, just one.

But . . . there does need to be two holes in the cable egress cover plate.

Do you remember, does the throttle grip cable drum have a cable groove the whole way 'round?

- Jim

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Old 10-30-2006, 09:30 PM   #59
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Here's the complete twist grip assembly for the right side on a 12GS.


* * * * * *

And here's the single 'heated grips only' illustration for both the left and right side of the 12GS.


That 'single hole' bottom cover isn't included with the 'heated grip only' part number.

- Jim

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Old 10-31-2006, 07:11 AM   #60
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As I recall, the groove only wraps around the front of the twist grip tube. I suppose if you could make a housing cover with a return cable provision and the tube was groovy enough then a push-pull throttle system could be retrofitted.

This issue irritated me to no end since the Bowden cable box was set up for the return cable but the throttle assembly didn't have any way to make it work. Seems stupid to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside


Yea man, that's cool.

You must also be saying that BMW does not offer the double cable housing, yes?



Well, since you've been through it, maybe you remember something Mark . . .

Does the throttle grip cable drum have a cable groove the whole way 'round?

See, many throttle cable 'pairs' aren't actually two separate cables. Kinda like a pair of pants I guess.

The way it works is there is a single ferrule, and it has a cable coming out from both sides. This 'pair' of cables unfurls from both sides of the throttle grip cable drum.

With the 'double ended' cable, two groves in the throttle grip drum are not needed, just one.

But . . . there does need to be two holes in the cable egress cover plate.

Do you remember, does the throttle grip cable drum have a cable groove the whole way 'round?

- Jim
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