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Old 02-03-2013, 08:39 PM   #8491
alonzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1fa View Post
It's not ethanol that does it...
OK, what does it?
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:54 AM   #8492
Tom S
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Originally Posted by alonzo View Post
OK, what does it?
Yeah,a1fa, ya VW bus freak, what?
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:41 PM   #8493
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Ethanol has been mixed with gas since the 70s. What do you think is in fuel stabilizers? Pure ethanol.... Let's do an experiment. Take a cup of 93 E10 (10% ethanol) blend, and a cup of 100% gas 93... Let it sit for 30 days. Don't submerge anything in it...
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:14 PM   #8494
3DChief
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Originally Posted by a1fa View Post
Ethanol has been mixed with gas since the 70s. What do you think is in fuel stabilizers? Pure ethanol.... Let's do an experiment. Take a cup of 93 E10 (10% ethanol) blend, and a cup of 100% gas 93... Let it sit for 30 days. Don't submerge anything in it...
Ummmmm.....might want to re-check that fact! In fact, Stabil contains no ethanol, read the MSDS and FAQ page on the Stabil website. Maybe you are thinking of gas line antifreeze, which is indeed almost 100% ethanol. It serves a completely different purpose though, which is to mix the water with the fuel so it can go through the system and leave through the exhaust, effectively removing it so it cannot freeze while separated from the fuel and block fuel passages.

Not pretending to be a chemist or anything close to it, but nothing I have found anywhere shows that any of the fuel STABILIZERS contain ethanol, they all contain petroleum distillates. Petroleum distillates come from oil, ethanol comes from grain, seeds, and plant matter. So even if the MSDS does not list specific chemicals, the fact that it is a petroleum distillate means it cannot have ethanol unless it is added. As an example, Stabil MSDS lists 95% petroleum distillates (OIL) and 5% additive mixture (?, but probably other chemicals specific to anti-corrosion). Even if that 5% were ethanol (which it isn't), that is still far from being 100%!

Please carry on with your experiment, I am curious to hear where you are going with it.


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Old 02-04-2013, 02:31 PM   #8495
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I was thinking more along the lines of HEET and isoporpyl aclohol. I guess the problem with ethanol is how well it mixes with water, and not problem on its own.
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:02 PM   #8496
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Indeed, ethanol is hygroscopic, attracting and holding up to 4 tablespoons of water (.5%) per gallon of gasoline. Because of these properties, as a gas line antifreeze, ethanol is awesome. It will continue to attract water beyond this level, but once it reaches this saturation point, it separates from the gasoline and settles to the bottom of the tank. Fuel stabilizers designed for ethanol increase this level to .7% before the ethanol/water separates out. As a stabilizer, it would create way more problems than it solved.

With that being said, I still don't know how fuel stabilizers work, or at least the exact chemistry behind it. Because gasoline is a mixture, stabilizers work to keep the mixture "mixed" and prevent it from stratifying. They do this by increasing the bond between the different molecules in the fuel to help keep the lighter elements from evaporating off. That's what varnish in a gas tank or carb is, the left over heavier elements of the fuel after the light ends evaporate off.

Since we are waaaaaaay off topic, I will say that with my wife's XT225, the only thing that has worked for us is to turn off the petcock and run the fuel out of the carb every time it will be parked for more than over night. When she does that, it will fire up right away every time assuming she remembers to turn the petcock back on. If she doesn't, unless it is within a day or two, she has to drain the bowl on the carb and get fresh fuel in there in order for it to start.


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Old 02-04-2013, 09:36 PM   #8497
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Disclaimer: I'm not a scientist, engineer, or chemist.
I do, however, have a fair amount of life experience with things electrical/chemical/mechanical.

Fact: ethanol has an affinity for water. i.e., if moisture is present, the
ethanol is going to absorb it.

Since a carburetor's float bowl (unlike a FI system) is exposed/vented to
the atmosphere, and, the atmosphere in general, contains moisture, ethanol
exposed to the atmosphere will absorb moisture.

Here's my take on some possible results of using fuel containing ethanol in
carburettered engines.

The ethanol absorbs atmospheric moisture (H2O) and,

1. The ethanol/water mix is capable of growing algae (and does so.) This
algae forms the blue-green slime that I've seen in carbs that have been
using fuel containing ethanol. This can happen in as little as two weeks.

This 'slime' clogs the orifices of the carb's jets. Particularly, the
tiny orifice of the pilot jet causing the 'it won't run unless the choke
is on' syndrome. Also, causes the 'it just won't start' syndrome (because
the pilot jet is so important at start-up.)

or,

2. The ethanol/water, in the presence of the carb's zinc/pot metal/aluminum
body and it's brass main/pilot/etc. jets causes an electrolytic action
(electrolysis) to take place. This would cause material from the 'least
noble' zinc/pot metal/aluminum to be deposited on the 'more noble' brass
causing clogging of the brass jet's tiny orifices resulting in starting/running issues.

3. There was something else that I was thinking of about this but now I can't
remember what it was... Oh, well.

4. OK. There is the possibility of more complex chemical reactions going on here
but, they're way over my head so, I ain't touching it.

Here's a link from Stihl on the use/problems of fuels containing ethanol:
http://www.stihlusablog.com/2012/03/...l-outdoor.html

-- alonzo
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alonzo screwed with this post 02-05-2013 at 06:21 AM Reason: general
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:53 PM   #8498
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alonzo,

I vote for #2. Algae requires sunlight.


I've been lucky with 10% ethanol gasoline, so far. I can still get pure gas, and do buy it most of the time.

I wonder if different locations around the US get different mixes of gas, and maybe I'm lucky and live in the right place? I haven't heard my neighbors complain about fuel problems either.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:28 PM   #8499
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Finally got these after suffering with the stock junk forever.

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Originally Posted by POLLOCK28 (XDTALK.com)
From what I understand from frequenting various forums you are handling this critisim completely wrong. You are supposed to get bent out of shape and start turning towards personal attacks. Get with the program!
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:45 PM   #8500
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I wonder if different locations around the US get different mixes of gas ..
Can’t recall why but there is no ethanol in the gasoline in Alaska.
Just high prices.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:28 PM   #8501
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Can’t recall why but there is no ethanol in the gasoline in Alaska.
Just high prices.
Why is your gas high? You guys got tons of it up there in the north.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:20 PM   #8502
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Why is your gas high?
That's what we’d like to know. It’s been investigated but there are no easy answers. Everything is more expensive here.
If you live off the road system, & that is most of the state, you are really screwed. 7 bucks a gallon for gas is possible, even $10 in some places have been reported in the past. Heating oil is also very, very high. Store bought food, can be off the charts.
A 2008 article reported that way up in Barrow ... ”...a loaf of bread goes for $6; a gallon of milk, $10.00; a dozen eggs, $4.60; a pound of strawberries, $10; a half-pound of lunch meat is $7.”

Right now here in Anchorage the bread I like is fairly expensive at $5.29 a loaf.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:40 PM   #8503
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That's what we’d like to know. It’s been investigated but there are no easy answers. Everything is more expensive here.
If you live off the road system, & that is most of the state, you are really screwed. 7 bucks a gallon for gas is possible, even $10 in some places have been reported in the past. Heating oil is also very, very high. Store bought food, can be off the charts.
A 2008 article reported that way up in Barrow ... ”...a loaf of bread goes for $6; a gallon of milk, $10.00; a dozen eggs, $4.60; a pound of strawberries, $10; a half-pound of lunch meat is $7.”

Right now here in Anchorage the bread I like is fairly expensive at $5.29 a loaf.
Wow... I buy one of the most expensive of the regular breads here and it is only about $4 and on sale for 3 quite often. In CA we call the high cost of living here sunshine tax... Is yours the freeze you balls off tax?
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #8504
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The reason for high fuel costs in AK is because of shipping. The only refinery in AK is in Valdez, and that one only refines diesel/jet fuel for the military. Oil gets shipped down to WA/OR/CA, refined, and shipped back. It's pretty ironic to be filling up your car/truck/bike in Valdez and looking over at the oil terminal. Giant tankers lining up to fill up with oil, and you are two miles away paying 3 times the price of gasoline in the lower 48. Living in Cordova was even worse for prices. On the plus side, natural gas was dirt cheap when I lived in Anchorage, which made the heating bill bearable. There are some things I miss about living in AK, high prices aren't among them.

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Old 02-05-2013, 10:53 PM   #8505
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The only refinery in AK is in Valdez ...
Not true.
There is Tesoro's Nikiski oil refinery in Kenai. "Opened in 1969, the Kenai refinery has been under Tesoro's operations longer than any of the other refineries."
There is also the Flint Hills refinery in North Pole. Closed one or maybe even two units but AFAIK they are still producing gasoline.
http://www.alaskajournal.com/Alaska-...refining-unit/
Apparently, as you say, the Petro Star Valdez Refinery does not produce gasoline but what they do produce is not only for the military.
“Products: Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, Commercial Jet Fuel, Military JP-8 and JP-5 Jet Fuel, Marine Diesel, Home Heating Oil, Turbine Fuel.”
http://www.petrostar.com/vdz/vdz.asp?page=refining
I am not 100% sure right now but think that the Nikiski refinery & the Flint Hills refinery are the only two that we have left up here that are producing gasoline. Most of our oil is shipped to the West coast of the lower 48.

Enough of this .... let's get back to XT225s.
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