The official XT225 thread!

[BlueLghtning]

Originally Posted by a1fa

It's not ethanol that does it...

Ethanol likes to absorb water though and sure makes a mess of carbs a lot more quickly if left to sit untreated.

Thankfully we do have 4 fuel stations near us that sell non-ethanol fuel and have made a habit of visiting them when ever we can. We also are being a lot more diligent about treating our gas pretty regularly.

[Crazy Canadian]

Originally Posted by BlueLghtning

Thankfully we do have 4 fuel stations near us that sell non-ethanol fuel and have made a habit of visiting them when ever we can. We also are being a lot more diligent about treating our gas pretty regularly.

Lucky guy... My closest pure gas station is in AZ...

[alonzo]

Originally Posted by a1fa

It's not ethanol that does it...

OK, what does it?

[Tom S]

Originally Posted by alonzo

OK, what does it?

Yeah,a1fa, ya VW bus freak, what?

[a1fa]

Ethanol has been mixed with gas since the 70s. What do you think is in fuel stabilizers? Pure ethanol.... Let's do an experiment. Take a cup of 93 E10 (10% ethanol) blend, and a cup of 100% gas 93... Let it sit for 30 days. Don't submerge anything in it...

[3DChief]

Originally Posted by a1fa

Ethanol has been mixed with gas since the 70s. What do you think is in fuel stabilizers? Pure ethanol.... Let's do an experiment. Take a cup of 93 E10 (10% ethanol) blend, and a cup of 100% gas 93... Let it sit for 30 days. Don't submerge anything in it...

Ummmmm.....might want to re-check that fact! In fact, Stabil contains no ethanol, read the MSDS and FAQ page on the Stabil website. Maybe you are thinking of gas line antifreeze, which is indeed almost 100% ethanol. It serves a completely different purpose though, which is to mix the water with the fuel so it can go through the system and leave through the exhaust, effectively removing it so it cannot freeze while separated from the fuel and block fuel passages.

Not pretending to be a chemist or anything close to it, but nothing I have found anywhere shows that any of the fuel STABILIZERS contain ethanol, they all contain petroleum distillates. Petroleum distillates come from oil, ethanol comes from grain, seeds, and plant matter. So even if the MSDS does not list specific chemicals, the fact that it is a petroleum distillate means it cannot have ethanol unless it is added. As an example, Stabil MSDS lists 95% petroleum distillates (OIL) and 5% additive mixture (?, but probably other chemicals specific to anti-corrosion). Even if that 5% were ethanol (which it isn't), that is still far from being 100%!

Please carry on with your experiment, I am curious to hear where you are going with it.


Tim

[a1fa]

I was thinking more along the lines of HEET and isoporpyl aclohol. I guess the problem with ethanol is how well it mixes with water, and not problem on its own.

[3DChief]

Indeed, ethanol is hygroscopic, attracting and holding up to 4 tablespoons of water (.5%) per gallon of gasoline. Because of these properties, as a gas line antifreeze, ethanol is awesome. It will continue to attract water beyond this level, but once it reaches this saturation point, it separates from the gasoline and settles to the bottom of the tank. Fuel stabilizers designed for ethanol increase this level to .7% before the ethanol/water separates out. As a stabilizer, it would create way more problems than it solved.

With that being said, I still don't know how fuel stabilizers work, or at least the exact chemistry behind it. Because gasoline is a mixture, stabilizers work to keep the mixture "mixed" and prevent it from stratifying. They do this by increasing the bond between the different molecules in the fuel to help keep the lighter elements from evaporating off. That's what varnish in a gas tank or carb is, the left over heavier elements of the fuel after the light ends evaporate off.

Since we are waaaaaaay off topic, I will say that with my wife's XT225, the only thing that has worked for us is to turn off the petcock and run the fuel out of the carb every time it will be parked for more than over night. When she does that, it will fire up right away every time assuming she remembers to turn the petcock back on. If she doesn't, unless it is within a day or two, she has to drain the bowl on the carb and get fresh fuel in there in order for it to start.


Tim

[alonzo]

Disclaimer: I'm not a scientist, engineer, or chemist.
I do, however, have a fair amount of life experience with things electrical/chemical/mechanical.

Fact: ethanol has an affinity for water. i.e., if moisture is present, the
ethanol is going to absorb it.

Since a carburetor's float bowl (unlike a FI system) is exposed/vented to
the atmosphere, and, the atmosphere in general, contains moisture, ethanol
exposed to the atmosphere will absorb moisture.

Here's my take on some possible results of using fuel containing ethanol in
carburettered engines.

The ethanol absorbs atmospheric moisture (H2O) and,

1. The ethanol/water mix is capable of growing algae (and does so.) This
algae forms the blue-green slime that I've seen in carbs that have been
using fuel containing ethanol. This can happen in as little as two weeks.

This 'slime' clogs the orifices of the carb's jets. Particularly, the
tiny orifice of the pilot jet causing the 'it won't run unless the choke
is on' syndrome. Also, causes the 'it just won't start' syndrome (because
the pilot jet is so important at start-up.)

or,

2. The ethanol/water, in the presence of the carb's zinc/pot metal/aluminum
body and it's brass main/pilot/etc. jets causes an electrolytic action
(electrolysis) to take place. This would cause material from the 'least
noble' zinc/pot metal/aluminum to be deposited on the 'more noble' brass
causing clogging of the brass jet's tiny orifices resulting in starting/running issues.

3. There was something else that I was thinking of about this but now I can't
remember what it was... Oh, well.

4. OK. There is the possibility of more complex chemical reactions going on here
but, they're way over my head so, I ain't touching it.

Here's a link from Stihl on the use/problems of fuels containing ethanol:
http://www.stihlusablog.com/2012/03/...l-outdoor.html

-- alonzo

[GlennR]

alonzo,

I vote for #2. Algae requires sunlight.


I've been lucky with 10% ethanol gasoline, so far. I can still get pure gas, and do buy it most of the time.

I wonder if different locations around the US get different mixes of gas, and maybe I'm lucky and live in the right place? I haven't heard my neighbors complain about fuel problems either.

[GI_JO_NATHAN]

Finally got these after suffering with the stock junk forever.

[Tom S]

Originally Posted by GlennR

I wonder if different locations around the US get different mixes of gas ..

Can’t recall why but there is no ethanol in the gasoline in Alaska.
Just high prices.

[Crazy Canadian]

Originally Posted by Tom S

Can’t recall why but there is no ethanol in the gasoline in Alaska.
Just high prices.

Why is your gas high? You guys got tons of it up there in the north.

[Tom S]

Originally Posted by Crazy Canadian

Why is your gas high?

That's what we’d like to know. It’s been investigated but there are no easy answers. Everything is more expensive here.
If you live off the road system, & that is most of the state, you are really screwed. 7 bucks a gallon for gas is possible, even $10 in some places have been reported in the past. Heating oil is also very, very high. Store bought food, can be off the charts.
A 2008 article reported that way up in Barrow ... ”...a loaf of bread goes for $6; a gallon of milk, $10.00; a dozen eggs, $4.60; a pound of strawberries, $10; a half-pound of lunch meat is $7.”

Right now here in Anchorage the bread I like is fairly expensive at $5.29 a loaf.

[Crazy Canadian]

Originally Posted by Tom S

That's what we’d like to know. It’s been investigated but there are no easy answers. Everything is more expensive here.
If you live off the road system, & that is most of the state, you are really screwed. 7 bucks a gallon for gas is possible, even $10 in some places have been reported in the past. Heating oil is also very, very high. Store bought food, can be off the charts.
A 2008 article reported that way up in Barrow ... ”...a loaf of bread goes for $6; a gallon of milk, $10.00; a dozen eggs, $4.60; a pound of strawberries, $10; a half-pound of lunch meat is $7.”

Right now here in Anchorage the bread I like is fairly expensive at $5.29 a loaf.

Wow... I buy one of the most expensive of the regular breads here and it is only about $4 and on sale for 3 quite often. In CA we call the high cost of living here sunshine tax... Is yours the freeze you balls off tax?